From pifyvhjnncrtfg at jrdf.com  Tue Nov 22 04:38:52 2022
From: pifyvhjnncrtfg at jrdf.com (pifyvhjnncrtfg at jrdf.com)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 17:38:52 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?tPq/qreixrFsMzU2NDk5OTg3MsDu?=
Message-ID: <20221122093855.52B523D6F8B@rock.pidgin.im>


代开各地行业增值税发票；点数优惠、验后付款

木子l3564999872（微信同号）


From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 22 19:18:50 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 18:18:50 -0600
Subject: State of Things
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings All,

This email isn't exactly a happy one, but please bear with me...

First of all, I woke up today to see that AWS has created a new
container tool named Finch[1]. I reached out on their issue
tracker[2], and they basically said "they don't care". I reached out
to SFC via Twitter[3] but will be reaching out to them via email
shortly. I also reached out to Cory Doctorow to see if he has any
thoughts as we have a working relationship.

Second, you all may or may not be aware of the crap going over on
Twitter, but Logan Abbot, the current President of SourceForge and
some other stuff, seems to be in full support of it[4]. This is
basically the last straw for me, I've defended the new management in
the past, but it's just time to move on. Fastly has Open Source
plans[4] and I've reached out to them to apply for one. Assuming it's
granted, I'm planning on copying all releases to fastly and putting
new releases there as well, but we'll leave the existing files on
SourceForge due to history and the inability to redirect (I believe).

Next up.. Email... So you may have noticed, absolutely nothing has
happened with the email. The reason for that is that I came to you all
with a plan, and I never really got signoff either way. In fact, I
even got doubts and suggestions to look at other services that have
only been recommended to people. This definitely rubbed me the wrong
way. I've been busting my butt to keep this project and foundation
relevant, and it seems like that's not enough or people don't realize
how time consuming all of this is. And to top it off, literally no one
even acknowledged my question of "Would IMF be willing to pay me for
this work?". I want to get this email problem off my plate, but if I'm
going to be second guessed and expected to investigate every option
people have heard of without getting paid then I'm literally just not
going to do it as I have much more impactful things to work on.

Finally, I talked to Robert McQueen (aka robot101) a former Gaim
contributor and current president of the GNOME foundation. I
originally set up that call to determine if there was any funding or
support the GNOME foundation could offer us, but basically that would
just be GNOME Circle[6] now which I need to investigate yet.

But the discussion eventually turned to  possibly moving Pidgin under
the GNOME umbrella. The foundation has a precedent for this already as
they basically just handle money and stuff for GIMP. We have discussed
folding the corporation before and it may be a bit late to start that
process this year, but this is a viable option. That said, we didn't
talk about the Adium stuff at all, but I don't think handling domain
registration would necessarily be a problem either.

And in non-gloomy news, we finally created a Mastodon account for
pidgin  on fosstodon.org[7].

[1] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/introducing-finch-an-open-source-client-for-container-development/
[2] https://github.com/runfinch/finch/issues/26
[3] https://twitter.com/rw_grim/status/1595169710160678921
[4] https://twitter.com/loganabbott
[5] https://www.fastly.com/fast-forward
[6] https://circle.gnome.org/
[7] @pidgin at fosstodon.org

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
Board at imfreedom.org
https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

From rlaager at pidgin.im  Tue Nov 22 20:02:09 2022
From: rlaager at pidgin.im (Richard Laager)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 19:02:09 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>

On 11/22/22 18:18, Gary Kramlich wrote:
> Next up.. Email... So you may have noticed, absolutely nothing has
> happened with the email. The reason for that is that I came to you all
> with a plan, and I never really got signoff either way. In fact, I
> even got doubts and suggestions to look at other services that have
> only been recommended to people.

I looked back at that thread. My read was and is that there was a 
general consensus that it was fine to migrate to self-hosted Discourse.


As for what to do past that point...

As I understand it, we are looking for relaying for e.g. ReviewBoard, 
forwarding for e.g. president at imfreedom.org, maybe forwarding for other 
accounts e.g. rlaager at pidgin.im, and maybe a distribution list (but no 
archiving) for e.g. board at imfreedom.org.


I had suggested Fastmail. So yeah, I see how I was basically assigning 
homework. Sorry!

I looked at Fastmail now and I couldn't find any evidence that they 
offer free hosting for open source. They did mention a 20% discount for 
non-profits, so not free. Fastmail Standard is $5/user/month 
pre-discount, so figuring we have < 10 users, that's in the same 
ballpark as Mailgun.


<conflict of interest alert>
I also offered Wiktel doing it for free. We do all these things. I can 
set this up in like an hour once the Mailman requirement is gone. Note 
that Wiktel's actual price for email is $10/domain/month. For two 
domains, that's actually slightly less than Mailgun/Fastmail.

My personal priority order for the email forwarding / distribution lists 
would be:

1. Wiktel (because free and I can do the setup work)
</conflict of interest alert>
2. Fastmail (by reputation)
3. Mailgun

But I don't particularly care between #2 and #3. r0bby recommended 
Mailgun. I'm sure it'll be great.


 > "Would IMF be willing to pay me for this work?"
or from the original thread:
 > if the board would like to pay me to do this
 > stuff, that would be very cool but of course not expected.

Yes, please, can we just pay Gary to setup Discourse as he proposed?

Gary, how much money do you want for the following statement of work:

1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman 
users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT, 
and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our 
existing mailing lists."

2. Spend up to 8 hours attempting to import the mbox archives from 
Mailman into Discourse, with no care given to preserving URLs.

-- 
Richard

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From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 22 21:41:11 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 20:41:11 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>

> My personal priority order for the email forwarding / distribution lists
> would be:
>
> 1. Wiktel (because free and I can do the setup work)
> </conflict of interest alert>
> 2. Fastmail (by reputation)
> 3. Mailgun
>
> But I don't particularly care between #2 and #3. r0bby recommended
> Mailgun. I'm sure it'll be great.

I don't particularly care either, I just want one we can go with and
not have to deal with all the headaches of running email.

>  > "Would IMF be willing to pay me for this work?"
> or from the original thread:
>  > if the board would like to pay me to do this
>  > stuff, that would be very cool but of course not expected.
>
> Yes, please, can we just pay Gary to setup Discourse as he proposed?
>
> Gary, how much money do you want for the following statement of work:
>
> 1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman
> users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT,
> and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our
> existing mailing lists."
>
> 2. Spend up to 8 hours attempting to import the mbox archives from
> Mailman into Discourse, with no care given to preserving URLs.

This statement of work isn't quite right as the intent is to leave the
archives where they are[1][2] to avoid redirect hell and breaking tons
of links across the web. However, running pipemail which is a now
unmaintained python2 application in 2023 doesn't sound like the best
idea. I've looked into some alternatives, namely monarch,
mlmmj-webarchiver, and hypermail, but all of those would break the
existing links.  So we either run pipermail (somehow probably just
with an old debian container or pull it done from source, or I can
whip something together in golang pretty quickly as there's multiple
mbox packages.

So we need to decide which way to go to actually define the SOW.

Actually I just looked at this on disk and we might be able to just
copy it out to a directory and serve it with nginx or whatever. I'm
not sure if we'd need the full mbox archives for the lists which would
cut the disk space in about half as well.

[1] https://lists.pidgin.im/pipermail/
[2] https://lists.imfreedom.org/pipermail/

> --
> Richard
>

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
Board at imfreedom.org
https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

From rlaager at pidgin.im  Wed Nov 23 00:08:09 2022
From: rlaager at pidgin.im (Richard Laager)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2022 23:08:09 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>

On 11/22/22 20:41, Gary Kramlich wrote:
>> Gary, how much money do you want for the following statement of work:
>>
>> 1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman
>> users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT,
>> and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our
>> existing mailing lists."
>>
>> 2. Spend up to 8 hours attempting to import the mbox archives from
>> Mailman into Discourse, with no care given to preserving URLs.
> 
> This statement of work isn't quite right as the intent is to leave the
> archives where they are[1][2] to avoid redirect hell and breaking tons
> of links across the web. However, running pipemail which is a now
> unmaintained python2 application in 2023 doesn't sound like the best
> idea.
As I understand it, the pipermail issue is the bulk of the migration 
problem. My plan was specifically to give up on trying to preserve the 
URLs, and even the messages themselves if necessary.

That said, can we just scrape the existing pipermail site and save it as 
a static HTML website? That would preserve the messages and the URLs.

-- 
Richard

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From grim at reaperworld.com  Wed Nov 23 03:19:05 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 02:19:05 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwDGWf+SWP1CtXMpXz6iuBnBONLajGxfufCAjT7XxfojHA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 11:08 PM Richard Laager <rlaager at pidgin.im> wrote:
> As I understand it, the pipermail issue is the bulk of the migration
> problem. My plan was specifically to give up on trying to preserve the
> URLs, and even the messages themselves if necessary.
>
> That said, can we just scrape the existing pipermail site and save it as
> a static HTML website? That would preserve the messages and the URLs.

Looking at it on disk, it appears to already just be a static site.
Like nothing needs to be done, I need to verify, but that _does_ seem
to be the case. So it'd really just be to load that all into a
container (in a reproducible fashion) throw nginx infront of it with a
dir index at the root and and be done.

> --
> Richard
>

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
Board at imfreedom.org
https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

From rlaager at pidgin.im  Wed Nov 23 04:17:47 2022
From: rlaager at pidgin.im (Richard Laager)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 03:17:47 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwDGWf+SWP1CtXMpXz6iuBnBONLajGxfufCAjT7XxfojHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwDGWf+SWP1CtXMpXz6iuBnBONLajGxfufCAjT7XxfojHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3a324bb2-0bf6-005a-4ab3-b3dfd7991a90@pidgin.im>

On 11/23/22 02:19, Gary Kramlich wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 11:08 PM Richard Laager <rlaager at pidgin.im> wrote:
>> As I understand it, the pipermail issue is the bulk of the migration
>> problem. My plan was specifically to give up on trying to preserve the
>> URLs, and even the messages themselves if necessary.
>>
>> That said, can we just scrape the existing pipermail site and save it as
>> a static HTML website? That would preserve the messages and the URLs.
> 
> Looking at it on disk, it appears to already just be a static site.
> Like nothing needs to be done, I need to verify, but that _does_ seem
> to be the case. So it'd really just be to load that all into a
> container (in a reproducible fashion) throw nginx infront of it with a
> dir index at the root and and be done.

So, the project to eliminate the mailing lists is something like this:

1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman
users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT,
and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our
existing mailing lists."

2. Adjust the website to link to Discourse instead of mailing lists. 
Send one last message to the mailing lists pointing people to the 
replacement.

3. Move archives into some sort of static serving setup.

At that point, our email needs are just outbound relay + inbound 
forwarding. I'm happy to provide that. It's literally a few minutes to 
setup accounts, then we change DNS, and shut off rock.

-- 
Richard

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From matthew at ei8ht.us  Wed Nov 23 16:22:20 2022
From: matthew at ei8ht.us (Matthew)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2022 15:22:20 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry if something I wrote came across as unappreciative or as tasking
you with more work. I can see how mentioning mailman archive import into
discord could be perceived as that, but I only intended It as a potential
solution to the problem you described (which I perceived as seeking
suggestions on how to handle archives).

The current thread about static html archives seems completely fine to me.

Regarding getting sign-off, how many people need to chime in for that, a
majority? I think we only had three people respond last time.

I have no objections to payment for work.



On Tue, Nov 22, 2022 at 6:19 PM Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com> wrote:

> Greetings All,
>
> This email isn't exactly a happy one, but please bear with me...
>
> First of all, I woke up today to see that AWS has created a new
> container tool named Finch[1]. I reached out on their issue
> tracker[2], and they basically said "they don't care". I reached out
> to SFC via Twitter[3] but will be reaching out to them via email
> shortly. I also reached out to Cory Doctorow to see if he has any
> thoughts as we have a working relationship.
>
> Second, you all may or may not be aware of the crap going over on
> Twitter, but Logan Abbot, the current President of SourceForge and
> some other stuff, seems to be in full support of it[4]. This is
> basically the last straw for me, I've defended the new management in
> the past, but it's just time to move on. Fastly has Open Source
> plans[4] and I've reached out to them to apply for one. Assuming it's
> granted, I'm planning on copying all releases to fastly and putting
> new releases there as well, but we'll leave the existing files on
> SourceForge due to history and the inability to redirect (I believe).
>
> Next up.. Email... So you may have noticed, absolutely nothing has
> happened with the email. The reason for that is that I came to you all
> with a plan, and I never really got signoff either way. In fact, I
> even got doubts and suggestions to look at other services that have
> only been recommended to people. This definitely rubbed me the wrong
> way. I've been busting my butt to keep this project and foundation
> relevant, and it seems like that's not enough or people don't realize
> how time consuming all of this is. And to top it off, literally no one
> even acknowledged my question of "Would IMF be willing to pay me for
> this work?". I want to get this email problem off my plate, but if I'm
> going to be second guessed and expected to investigate every option
> people have heard of without getting paid then I'm literally just not
> going to do it as I have much more impactful things to work on.
>
> Finally, I talked to Robert McQueen (aka robot101) a former Gaim
> contributor and current president of the GNOME foundation. I
> originally set up that call to determine if there was any funding or
> support the GNOME foundation could offer us, but basically that would
> just be GNOME Circle[6] now which I need to investigate yet.
>
> But the discussion eventually turned to  possibly moving Pidgin under
> the GNOME umbrella. The foundation has a precedent for this already as
> they basically just handle money and stuff for GIMP. We have discussed
> folding the corporation before and it may be a bit late to start that
> process this year, but this is a viable option. That said, we didn't
> talk about the Adium stuff at all, but I don't think handling domain
> registration would necessarily be a problem either.
>
> And in non-gloomy news, we finally created a Mastodon account for
> pidgin  on fosstodon.org[7].
>
> [1]
> https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/introducing-finch-an-open-source-client-for-container-development/
> [2] https://github.com/runfinch/finch/issues/26
> [3] https://twitter.com/rw_grim/status/1595169710160678921
> [4] https://twitter.com/loganabbott
> [5] https://www.fastly.com/fast-forward
> [6] https://circle.gnome.org/
> [7] @pidgin at fosstodon.org
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at imfreedom.org
> https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board
>
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From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 29 17:56:25 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:56:25 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <3a324bb2-0bf6-005a-4ab3-b3dfd7991a90@pidgin.im>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwDGWf+SWP1CtXMpXz6iuBnBONLajGxfufCAjT7XxfojHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a324bb2-0bf6-005a-4ab3-b3dfd7991a90@pidgin.im>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwAhOynHU08XkBR=SRvQO9CpJjw0PVGbjW9i8E6acC_HtA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 3:18 AM Richard Laager <rlaager at pidgin.im> wrote:

Sorry for my late reply, it's been a busy week with the holiday and
other things.

> So, the project to eliminate the mailing lists is something like this:
>
> 1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman
> users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT,
> and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our
> existing mailing lists."
>
> 2. Adjust the website to link to Discourse instead of mailing lists.
> Send one last message to the mailing lists pointing people to the
> replacement.
>
> 3. Move archives into some sort of static serving setup.
>
> At that point, our email needs are just outbound relay + inbound
> forwarding. I'm happy to provide that. It's literally a few minutes to
> setup accounts, then we change DNS, and shut off rock.

For number 1, I can get Discourse setup tonight so we can try to move
the mailing list into read-only mode before the December archive hits.

That said, there are some unanswered questions. Do we want to use the
built in of Discourse or do we want to attempt to tie it into
hub.imfreedom.org? I haven't looked at how any of this works yet, so I
can't give a time estimate. Also we need to decide if we're going to
use the DigitalOcean one click app which I don't believe there is a
charge for but will need to verified, or if we're going to try and set
it up ourselves via ansible or something. I'm assuming postgress will
be running on the host and we'll just use the normal volume backups as
our backup solution.

2. This is straight forward, but I need to find the setting to disable
new posts to a list for the interim while we're making these changes.
Also if we can set a bounce/auto-reply method that would probably be
preferred.

3. For the archives, my plan is to create an archive of them, drop
them into data.imfreedom.org, and then use those archives to build
containers that will serve them via our Kubernetes cluster.

There is also the addition of tearing down the existing machine we
stood up to handle email, which should be torn down, but I am
currently using it for service monitoring. So basically we'll just
destroy that vps, create a new one, run the ansible for the service
monitoring, and update dns for status.imfreedom.org and
status.pidgin.im to point to the new very small vps that will be doing
the monitoring.

If you're willing to support outbound relay + inbound forwarding that
is great! Please let me know what changes I need to do for DNS so we
can get that documented and then determine a time to make the changes.

Also, if we're doing a Statement of Work to compensate me for working
on this, we either need to get that defined or define a time box
around it. I'm already at least 2 hours into research and planning for
what it's worth.

> --
> Richard

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
Board at imfreedom.org
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From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 29 18:00:10 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 17:00:10 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwCZVq7NjYvCxmJoW843L2JSSxNSWmwBjq1e0_=iPnN+oA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 3:22 PM Matthew <matthew at ei8ht.us> wrote:

Sorry for the late reply, between the Holiday and other activities I
didn't have a chance to respond sooner.

> I'm sorry if something I wrote came across as unappreciative or as tasking you with more work. I can see how mentioning mailman archive import into discord could be perceived as that, but I only intended It as a potential solution to the problem you described (which I perceived as seeking suggestions on how to handle archives).

It's nothing you've done directly. The bigger issues are that I
brought up 4 topics in this thread and so far we're only addressing
one of them. Which then means I have to nag about the other 3. And for
what it's worth, I have a call with a lawyer tomorrow about the naming
dispute and in the very near future I'm most likely going to be
bringing up trademarking, which if experience has taught me anything,
is that no one is going to reply ;)

> The current thread about static html archives seems completely fine to me.

Yeah, I wish I had dug into it earlier to realize that was even possible :-/

> Regarding getting sign-off, how many people need to chime in for that, a majority? I think we only had three people respond last time.

The issue about the sign off is we never discussed who was going to
create the account for mailgun and pay for it, but the mail gun idea
was spiked which destroyed any consensus.

> I have no objections to payment for work.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
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From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 29 19:51:47 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 18:51:47 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwAhOynHU08XkBR=SRvQO9CpJjw0PVGbjW9i8E6acC_HtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwDGWf+SWP1CtXMpXz6iuBnBONLajGxfufCAjT7XxfojHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a324bb2-0bf6-005a-4ab3-b3dfd7991a90@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwAhOynHU08XkBR=SRvQO9CpJjw0PVGbjW9i8E6acC_HtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwBHXxC5k9d+Xqy+GzoqOOM95DYqobo3PfMn0eXu8pspzw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 4:56 PM Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com> wrote:
> For number 1, I can get Discourse setup tonight so we can try to move
> the mailing list into read-only mode before the December archive hits.
>
> That said, there are some unanswered questions. Do we want to use the
> built in of Discourse or do we want to attempt to tie it into
> hub.imfreedom.org? I haven't looked at how any of this works yet, so I
> can't give a time estimate. Also we need to decide if we're going to
> use the DigitalOcean one click app which I don't believe there is a
> charge for but will need to verified, or if we're going to try and set
> it up ourselves via ansible or something. I'm assuming postgress will
> be running on the host and we'll just use the normal volume backups as
> our backup solution.

I started looking at the 1 click setup and we need a domain to finish
setup.. So, what domain do we want to run this on. I think we should
probably do discourse.imfreedom.org as our other team tools are all
under imfreedom.org. That said, issues and ci were originally named as
such because it's more "discoverable" than youtrack and teamcity, but
I feel like discourse.foo is pretty common now so it should be fine?

Also I see nothing about a charge for a 1-click which seemed silly in
the first place but i wanted to rule it out, you just pay for the node
which will be fine.

Also, I'm going to name the server carrier, unless anyone has any objections.

In the meantime, I'm going to do some cleanup on dodo (the server we
were building to handle all of the email) and remove mailman3 so I can
move it to a cheaper node.

I think that covers just about everything for now, but I'm making
myself a note that I need to get a list of email accounts to forward
and stuff.


-- 
Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
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From grim at reaperworld.com  Tue Nov 29 22:23:35 2022
From: grim at reaperworld.com (Gary Kramlich)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 21:23:35 -0600
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <1A3F8A40-B709-42CF-AE5F-9C577359F70E@wiktel.com>
References: <CAGA0GwBHXxC5k9d+Xqy+GzoqOOM95DYqobo3PfMn0eXu8pspzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A3F8A40-B709-42CF-AE5F-9C577359F70E@wiktel.com>
Message-ID: <CAGA0GwCT79f5dHtQPWFaDrcmJwPp2Mra7MjApy-OLZbatxY3uw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:25 PM Richard Laager <rlaager at wiktel.com> wrote:
>
> [Off-list because I’m replying from my phone which doesn’t have the appropriate address setup. It’s fine to quote this publicly.]
>
> discourse.imfreedom.org as the service name seems fine.
>
> If it were me… I think it’d be worth some small amount of time (like 2 or 4 hours) to try to integrate the auth with hub. If it’s trivial, why not. If you investigate and you’re halfway there, then continue a little longer. If you investigate and it’s going to be a mess, then bail and use built in auth. But ultimately it is up to you, as you are the one doing it.

That was kind of my thought, the questionable part is importing the
user list from mailman then means we're bringing people into more..
but I dunno, the more i think about it, the more i'm thinking the
username import might not be worth it.

> --
> Richard

Thanks,

--
Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
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From eryttyrehcv at paol.com  Wed Nov 30 04:05:16 2022
From: eryttyrehcv at paol.com (eryttyrehcv at paol.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 17:05:16 +0800
Subject: =?GB2312?B?tPq/qreixrFsMzU2NDk5OTg3MsDu?=
Message-ID: <20221130090519.0DE483D6D2D@rock.pidgin.im>


代开各地行业增值税发票；点数优惠、验后付款

木子l3564999872（微信同号）


From relwalretep at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 04:21:59 2022
From: relwalretep at gmail.com (Peter Lawler)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:21:59 +1100
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG73kvWw+czgW=ejosdi7U5FPDOqJy2aauQNvPHE9k2t167_Xw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Board,
Per Gary's reply to my regarding an IMF/Apple/Elon Musk joke I made in
Gary's Pidgin Meme Discord channel, I don't believe it's possible for
me to have a reasoned conversation with him and as such I shall
contribute to this by directing my thoughts to the board.

1. I suspect that as no reasonable IT person would confuse a container
tool with an IM tool, such a course of action would be fruitless (see
a number of MacDonald's cases where they've gone up against say home
hardware stores)
2. I'm largely careless about the choices, however I cannot recall if
I've mentioned major free university mirroring before (eg, AARNet) and
whether IMF has applied for such.
3. The possibility of moving to GNOME is an intriguing one. Based on
various comments from other board members over the past few years,
it'd seem that perhaps this may be some goal we're looking towards.
While I do not know whether other software nonprofits are looking to
pick the IMF up, I also do not know whether the IMF board has made any
explicit statement on such a topic. While I agree that Robot101 would
be a great person to help us out, I am conflicted as to the 'public
perception' (for want of a better term) of having IMF's projects
brought under GNOME's umbrella. While GIMP is named for GTK, and all
the accompanying stuff that goes along with it, on one hand I'm not
sure whether folks out there appreciate the distinction but on the
other hand I dunno if they care. While I understand and appreciate
that the whole IMF thing can and is considered by some to be a hassle
to our regular day to day lives, I suspect the underlying issue Gary
is dealing with here is that the wider Free Software Non-Profit
community is unaware of the situation. While I think chatting with
Robot101 would be great, I think it'd also behoove us as board members
to make an explicit statement on such a search as well as making
public other such stuff that will assist in removing this noose around
our neck in preference for others who are regularly paid to take care
of this kind of thing. There seems to be some issue regarding Adium,
however I am currently loathed to talk to that at any extent.
4. I remain beastly careless about the email situation. Whatever is
likely to work, and reduce Gary's time, stress, and cost overheads
works for me. He's done a fantabulous job in keeping things going this
far.

I shall now proceed to reply to any other emails in this thread I feel
I may be able to contribute to.


Regards,

Peter Lawler.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 at 11:19, Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings All,
>
> This email isn't exactly a happy one, but please bear with me...
>
> First of all, I woke up today to see that AWS has created a new
> container tool named Finch[1]. I reached out on their issue
> tracker[2], and they basically said "they don't care". I reached out
> to SFC via Twitter[3] but will be reaching out to them via email
> shortly. I also reached out to Cory Doctorow to see if he has any
> thoughts as we have a working relationship.
>
> Second, you all may or may not be aware of the crap going over on
> Twitter, but Logan Abbot, the current President of SourceForge and
> some other stuff, seems to be in full support of it[4]. This is
> basically the last straw for me, I've defended the new management in
> the past, but it's just time to move on. Fastly has Open Source
> plans[4] and I've reached out to them to apply for one. Assuming it's
> granted, I'm planning on copying all releases to fastly and putting
> new releases there as well, but we'll leave the existing files on
> SourceForge due to history and the inability to redirect (I believe).
>
> Next up.. Email... So you may have noticed, absolutely nothing has
> happened with the email. The reason for that is that I came to you all
> with a plan, and I never really got signoff either way. In fact, I
> even got doubts and suggestions to look at other services that have
> only been recommended to people. This definitely rubbed me the wrong
> way. I've been busting my butt to keep this project and foundation
> relevant, and it seems like that's not enough or people don't realize
> how time consuming all of this is. And to top it off, literally no one
> even acknowledged my question of "Would IMF be willing to pay me for
> this work?". I want to get this email problem off my plate, but if I'm
> going to be second guessed and expected to investigate every option
> people have heard of without getting paid then I'm literally just not
> going to do it as I have much more impactful things to work on.
>
> Finally, I talked to Robert McQueen (aka robot101) a former Gaim
> contributor and current president of the GNOME foundation. I
> originally set up that call to determine if there was any funding or
> support the GNOME foundation could offer us, but basically that would
> just be GNOME Circle[6] now which I need to investigate yet.
>
> But the discussion eventually turned to  possibly moving Pidgin under
> the GNOME umbrella. The foundation has a precedent for this already as
> they basically just handle money and stuff for GIMP. We have discussed
> folding the corporation before and it may be a bit late to start that
> process this year, but this is a viable option. That said, we didn't
> talk about the Adium stuff at all, but I don't think handling domain
> registration would necessarily be a problem either.
>
> And in non-gloomy news, we finally created a Mastodon account for
> pidgin  on fosstodon.org[7].
>
> [1] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/opensource/introducing-finch-an-open-source-client-for-container-development/
> [2] https://github.com/runfinch/finch/issues/26
> [3] https://twitter.com/rw_grim/status/1595169710160678921
> [4] https://twitter.com/loganabbott
> [5] https://www.fastly.com/fast-forward
> [6] https://circle.gnome.org/
> [7] @pidgin at fosstodon.org
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at imfreedom.org
> https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

_______________________________________________
Board mailing list
Board at imfreedom.org
https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

From relwalretep at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 04:25:20 2022
From: relwalretep at gmail.com (Peter Lawler)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:25:20 +1100
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAG73kvWFTuXw=d3v=vS88bCa5Ax7LZHVQqatF537cTtAWt7oJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, 24 Nov 2022 at 08:23, Matthew <matthew at ei8ht.us> wrote:

> Regarding getting sign-off, how many people need to chime in for that, a majority? I think we only had three people respond last time.
To an degree, I'd presume anything that isn't an outright objection
within a reasonable amount of time indicates a willingness to proceed.
Whilst there's likely some obvious paperwork required, I'm of the
opinion that such should at least indicate such desire.

P.

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From relwalretep at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 04:26:25 2022
From: relwalretep at gmail.com (Peter Lawler)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:26:25 +1100
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
Message-ID: <CAG73kvXY8c5RUbmZ1K+zquccMxeLsotyK3xsDKwQ01AGufVC1g@mail.gmail.com>

Are we preserved with Internet Archive? Or am I missing something
here. Haven't directly checked, time over effort etc.

Pete.

On Wed, 23 Nov 2022 at 16:08, Richard Laager <rlaager at pidgin.im> wrote:
>
> On 11/22/22 20:41, Gary Kramlich wrote:
> >> Gary, how much money do you want for the following statement of work:
> >>
> >> 1. "roll out Discourse[3] on a DigitalOcean node, import the mailman
> >> users lists into it, and create spaces for Pidgin, Finch, Purple, GNT,
> >> and IMFreedom on it with appropriate threads and stuff to replace our
> >> existing mailing lists."
> >>
> >> 2. Spend up to 8 hours attempting to import the mbox archives from
> >> Mailman into Discourse, with no care given to preserving URLs.
> >
> > This statement of work isn't quite right as the intent is to leave the
> > archives where they are[1][2] to avoid redirect hell and breaking tons
> > of links across the web. However, running pipemail which is a now
> > unmaintained python2 application in 2023 doesn't sound like the best
> > idea.
> As I understand it, the pipermail issue is the bulk of the migration
> problem. My plan was specifically to give up on trying to preserve the
> URLs, and even the messages themselves if necessary.
>
> That said, can we just scrape the existing pipermail site and save it as
> a static HTML website? That would preserve the messages and the URLs.
>
> --
> Richard
>
> _______________________________________________
> Board mailing list
> Board at imfreedom.org
> https://lists.imfreedom.org/listinfo/board

_______________________________________________
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From rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org  Wed Nov 30 20:51:08 2022
From: rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org (John Bailey)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 20:51:08 -0500
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAGA0GwCT79f5dHtQPWFaDrcmJwPp2Mra7MjApy-OLZbatxY3uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwBHXxC5k9d+Xqy+GzoqOOM95DYqobo3PfMn0eXu8pspzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A3F8A40-B709-42CF-AE5F-9C577359F70E@wiktel.com>
 <CAGA0GwCT79f5dHtQPWFaDrcmJwPp2Mra7MjApy-OLZbatxY3uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfZOuXLB6P3di4YA6BDMZzJK6nkiJT3ytni+o6Ac-Bq2noZLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 10:23 PM Gary Kramlich <grim at reaperworld.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 8:25 PM Richard Laager <rlaager at wiktel.com> wrote:
> > If it were me… I think it’d be worth some small amount of time (like 2 or 4 hours) to try to integrate the auth with hub. If it’s trivial, why not. If you investigate and you’re halfway there, then continue a little longer. If you investigate and it’s going to be a mess, then bail and use built in auth. But ultimately it is up to you, as you are the one doing it.
>
> That was kind of my thought, the questionable part is importing the
> user list from mailman then means we're bringing people into more..
> but I dunno, the more i think about it, the more i'm thinking the
> username import might not be worth it.

The more I think about this the more I think it's wasting your time to
import the user list from mailman.  I'm thinking the best way to go
forward is to send an email to each list stating that we're migrating
to Discourse, provide the URL, and let everyone know that if they want
to continue with the mailing list's new form, they'd need to register
on Discourse (or hub, whatever that ends up looking like).  Maybe I'm
oversimplifying this because to me this feels like a trivial thing
given the conversions and migrations I've had to deal with in my day
job, or maybe I'm trying to cut corners because of exhaustion with
conversions?  As I've said previously, though, I'm not sure my opinion
on this really matters given my lack of involvement in the day to day
operations of the projects.

John

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From rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org  Wed Nov 30 21:00:07 2022
From: rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org (John Bailey)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 21:00:07 -0500
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CALfZOuXLB6P3di4YA6BDMZzJK6nkiJT3ytni+o6Ac-Bq2noZLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwBHXxC5k9d+Xqy+GzoqOOM95DYqobo3PfMn0eXu8pspzw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1A3F8A40-B709-42CF-AE5F-9C577359F70E@wiktel.com>
 <CAGA0GwCT79f5dHtQPWFaDrcmJwPp2Mra7MjApy-OLZbatxY3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfZOuXLB6P3di4YA6BDMZzJK6nkiJT3ytni+o6Ac-Bq2noZLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfZOuUk8b00_nxWVZ195KNKfyP7zvcRibZcPpe5PpaOoqzuXA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 8:51 PM John Bailey <rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org> wrote:
> The more I think about this the more I think it's wasting your time to
> import the user list from mailman.  I'm thinking the best way to go
> forward is to send an email to each list stating that we're migrating
> to Discourse, provide the URL, and let everyone know that if they want
> to continue with the mailing list's new form, they'd need to register
> on Discourse (or hub, whatever that ends up looking like).  Maybe I'm
> oversimplifying this because to me this feels like a trivial thing
> given the conversions and migrations I've had to deal with in my day
> job, or maybe I'm trying to cut corners because of exhaustion with
> conversions?  As I've said previously, though, I'm not sure my opinion
> on this really matters given my lack of involvement in the day to day
> operations of the projects.
>
> John

Also, to be clear, I have no objections to anything that's been
proposed.  I'm just interested in what gets the work off Gary's plate
and allows him to stop worrying about it.  And if anything I've said
sounded like causing more work, that was definitely not my intent.

And I believe I'm on record with this in board meeting minutes, but I
don't care one way or the other whether we fold the corporation into
some other umbrella organization, continue on, or decide what to do
with the "war chest" and just dissolve.  I'm on board with whatever
our consensus is.

John

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From rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org  Wed Nov 30 21:06:24 2022
From: rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org (John Bailey)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 21:06:24 -0500
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAG73kvXY8c5RUbmZ1K+zquccMxeLsotyK3xsDKwQ01AGufVC1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGA0GwABEiKurexotH_AC+DdZatmJ4ra=qVoqHnQUwbbT2OqRw@mail.gmail.com>
 <3a1a9241-70ac-d574-1ca6-6b4a8de94fa6@pidgin.im>
 <CAGA0GwA3MS9e0UG2tSjWHrTAOXs0AW2vhdjh81h=+7ZqazkL9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2a7a8209-13a7-829d-27fb-61919c8ed93f@pidgin.im>
 <CAG73kvXY8c5RUbmZ1K+zquccMxeLsotyK3xsDKwQ01AGufVC1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfZOuUcLEYEcJd2kF5LehrKFxtbk3EHpKBgC5_t9UbZbBNkVQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 4:27 AM Peter Lawler <relwalretep at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Are we preserved with Internet Archive? Or am I missing something
> here. Haven't directly checked, time over effort etc.

This is a good question.  A quick look shows they have
(https://web.archive.org/web/20211107012538/https://lists.pidgin.im/pipermail/devel/
for example), but it might be somewhat out of date.  I think Gary's
main concern was preserving the links as much as possible, because who
knows how many links there are to lists.pidgin.im or
lists.imfreedom.org or whatever.  It's trivial to amass hundreds or
thousands of links that might have some historical value but are
easily broken because of a migration like this.

John

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From rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org  Wed Nov 30 21:15:35 2022
From: rekkanoryo at rekkanoryo.org (John Bailey)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 21:15:35 -0500
Subject: State of Things
In-Reply-To: <CAERx-0MPSe1gYhhW+hTpEecJ_4ZNjpm80tZdn9eDODsywOQX-Q@mail.gmail.com>
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On Wed, Nov 23, 2022 at 4:23 PM Matthew <matthew at ei8ht.us> wrote:
> Regarding getting sign-off, how many people need to chime in for that, a majority? I think we only had three people respond last time.

I just mentioned this to Gary a bit ago, but as far as the projects
are concerned, Gary can do whatever he wants for Pidgin, libpurple,
and Finch and the board doesn't need to approve anything unless the
project is asking us to pay for something.  The only thing we as the
IM Freedom board would need to approve aside from expenditures is
stuff that directly affects the corporation, such as changes to this
list.  And even then, I don't know that a full formal vote is
necessary as long as we have consensus.  My personal view on it is, as
long as we have continuity to continue to do the minimal things we do,
whatever keeps us going without spending a fortune or putting undue
burden on any one person, especially Gary, feels reasonable.

John

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