From tomhennigan at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 02:33:27 2008
From: tomhennigan at gmail.com (Tom Hennigan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 07:33:27 +0000
Subject: 1, 2, 3, testing
In-Reply-To: <cd302b220801311904i79790b12nee892f8e2c507007@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd302b220801310937o253b67b7j837460fe7275f03@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A208E1.5070101@stpeter.im>
	<94B09A57-1B88-4DA7-AECB-0F16ADEE88EF@pidgin.im>
	<47A24AA1.6060700@simguy.net>
	<cd302b220801311904i79790b12nee892f8e2c507007@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E69385A8-32FA-4077-A1C7-2364A319073B@gmail.com>

On 1 Feb 2008, at 03:04, Dx wrote:

> On 1/31/08, Kevin Stange <kevin at simguy.net> wrote:
>> Luke Schierer wrote:
>>> imfreedom.org still redirects to pidgin.im because I don't have a
>>> separate webpage for it.  If someone writes up some html for it,  
>>> Sean
>>> or I can certainly put it in place and remove the redirect.
>>
>> Is there any reason not to just make the Wiki the top level of the  
>> site?
>>  We can have a designer re-template mediawiki to make it look like a
>> real web site down the road.
>>
>> Kevin
>>
>
> Quoting the last mail on the previous pseudo list:
>
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2008 at 06:20:43AM +0000, Tom Hennigan wrote:
>> I've started work on a front page for this site. Just a simple home  
>> page
>> with links to the wiki and mailing lists. Should do the job! I'll  
>> have it
>> ready for Friday I think..
>>
>> - Tom
>>
>
> Someone find him via IM, thanks.
>

I'm still around! I've put the design I've done online. You can find  
it here: http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom/. I  
thought a lack of images made the site slightly bland, so in this  
variant (http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom-with-protocol-logos/ 
), I added 2 IM logos as a test (we won't be able to use these icons  
on the final site).

Please let me know if it's not what you wanted (the design was not  
talked about before..), or if anyone has any suggestions =].

Btw. The lang feature is functional in code, I just haven't added the  
french translation, I enabled the flag in the footer as a demo of what  
we could have.

>
> -- 
> dx
>
> (disclaimer: my english grammar may or may not be bad, that depends on
> lots of variables that I am too lazy to consider, thanks)
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim

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From dx at dxzone.com.ar  Fri Feb  1 09:57:51 2008
From: dx at dxzone.com.ar (Dx)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:57:51 -0300
Subject: 1, 2, 3, testing
In-Reply-To: <E69385A8-32FA-4077-A1C7-2364A319073B@gmail.com>
References: <cd302b220801310937o253b67b7j837460fe7275f03@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A208E1.5070101@stpeter.im>
	<94B09A57-1B88-4DA7-AECB-0F16ADEE88EF@pidgin.im>
	<47A24AA1.6060700@simguy.net>
	<cd302b220801311904i79790b12nee892f8e2c507007@mail.gmail.com>
	<E69385A8-32FA-4077-A1C7-2364A319073B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd302b220802010657q63cabe9dx8f5dd58c2cd2b378@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/1/08, Tom Hennigan <tomhennigan at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm still around! I've put the design I've done online. You can find it
> here: http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom/.
> I thought a lack of images made the site slightly bland, so in this variant
> (http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom-with-protocol-logos/),
> I added 2 IM logos as a test (we won't be able to use these icons on the
> final site).
>
> Please let me know if it's not what you wanted (the design was not talked
> about before..), or if anyone has any suggestions =].
>
> Btw. The lang feature is functional in code, I just haven't added the french
> translation, I enabled the flag in the footer as a demo of what we could
> have.
>

Nice, my suggestions:
- The reflection and the drop shadow of the header have almost the
same contrast as the "imFreedom" title. A white border may help.
- A bigger header, add more space there :D
- Underlined section headers? Unless you add #anchor links..
- The text is OK, but maybe s/data/documentation/g
- emesene is not in the list :P ..ok, ok, we are not that big. And
pymsn is lowercase, afaik
- The pseudo CMS is nice, but some mod_rewrite love would be better.
- I'm not sure about the page background and the footer.

(note: i am here just to help with docs, i am not the one that says
"this is what we wanted")

Questions:
- Isn't imfreedom the legal corporation created by pidgin to blah blah
legal blah blah AOL blah blah? But, well, openim is also a jabber
client.. so..
- Will this integrate with mediawiki?


-- 
dx

(disclaimer: my english grammar may or may not be bad, that depends on
lots of variables that I am too lazy to consider, thanks)

From johann.prieur at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:25:59 2008
From: johann.prieur at gmail.com (Johann Prieur)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:25:59 +0100
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
Message-ID: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Before writing pages of worthy documentation, I'd like that we get some
orientation :

- What is our priority in terms of protocol version? Is it worthy to take
time to document older versions of MSNP? Should we only focus on the latest
version? Should we choose some editorial style defining clearly what are the
changes between versions ("transition" pages)?
- What do you think YOU can bring in term of documentation? The goal here is
to define some tasks and assign them to volunteers so that we don't
replicate what another is doing and start getting a shape of what's coming.

Cheers,

Johann
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From luismarianoguerra at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:34:22 2008
From: luismarianoguerra at gmail.com (Mariano Guerra)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:34:22 +0100
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b501d25f0802011234k13fe8bb6g2aae0cd2ae27287@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 9:25 PM, Johann Prieur <johann.prieur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Before writing pages of worthy documentation, I'd like that we get some
> orientation :
>
> - What is our priority in terms of protocol version? Is it worthy to take
> time to document older versions of MSNP? Should we only focus on the latest
> version? Should we choose some editorial style defining clearly what are the
> changes between versions ("transition" pages)?

I think we should focus on MSNP15 (the latest AFAIK), so we have one protocol
version well documented. If a new one come up, we should still work to
complete the MSNP15 documentation, when its complete we can move to the
next one if it add some significant features, if it doesn't, then we can wait
until a major new version.

>  - What do you think YOU can bring in term of documentation? The goal here
> is to define some tasks and assign them to volunteers so that we don't
> replicate what another is doing and start getting a shape of what's coming.

I guess the pymsn guys have almost all the MSNP15 protocol covered, we should
hear what they have to say ;).
 If there is some part still missing on their implementation I would
love to try to
investigate about it.

So I guess we should document what they already know :P

PS: emesenelib implementation is of MSNP13, some thigs are shared with MSNP15 so
dx (the other developer) and I can document some of that parts and let
pymsn et al
document the parts that are particular to MSNP15.

what do you think?

From felipe.contreras at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:39:12 2008
From: felipe.contreras at gmail.com (Felipe Contreras)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:39:12 +0200
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <b501d25f0802011234k13fe8bb6g2aae0cd2ae27287@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011234k13fe8bb6g2aae0cd2ae27287@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94a0d4530802011239s5b708fe1pa31b06c6f53c4148@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 10:34 PM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2008 9:25 PM, Johann Prieur <johann.prieur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Before writing pages of worthy documentation, I'd like that we get some
> > orientation :
> >
> > - What is our priority in terms of protocol version? Is it worthy to take
> > time to document older versions of MSNP? Should we only focus on the latest
> > version? Should we choose some editorial style defining clearly what are the
> > changes between versions ("transition" pages)?
>
> I think we should focus on MSNP15 (the latest AFAIK), so we have one protocol
> version well documented. If a new one come up, we should still work to
> complete the MSNP15 documentation, when its complete we can move to the
> next one if it add some significant features, if it doesn't, then we can wait
> until a major new version.
>
> >  - What do you think YOU can bring in term of documentation? The goal here
> > is to define some tasks and assign them to volunteers so that we don't
> > replicate what another is doing and start getting a shape of what's coming.
>
> I guess the pymsn guys have almost all the MSNP15 protocol covered, we should
> hear what they have to say ;).
>  If there is some part still missing on their implementation I would
> love to try to
> investigate about it.
>
> So I guess we should document what they already know :P
>
> PS: emesenelib implementation is of MSNP13, some thigs are shared with MSNP15 so
> dx (the other developer) and I can document some of that parts and let
> pymsn et al
> document the parts that are particular to MSNP15.
>
> what do you think?

Yeah, I agree.

It will be nice to have documentation for older versions of the
protocols, but first MSNP15, then let's see what happens.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

From tomhennigan at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:39:24 2008
From: tomhennigan at gmail.com (Tom Hennigan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 20:39:24 +0000
Subject: Request: Add Reply-To Header
Message-ID: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>

Unless people really object, could an admin add a Reply-To header to  
mails sent by the mailing list?

- Tom

From stpeter at stpeter.im  Fri Feb  1 15:42:42 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:42:42 -0700
Subject: Bonjour documentation
Message-ID: <47A38442.5080205@stpeter.im>

I notice that Bonjour is listed on the wiki. There is pretty complete
documentation of Bonjour messaging here:

http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0174.html

There are some ambiguities in that spec, which we're working to fix here:

http://www.xmpp.org/extensions/tmp/xep-0174-1.1.html

Discuss here:

http://mail.jabber.org/mailman/listinfo/standards

Thanks!

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From johann.prieur at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 15:54:15 2008
From: johann.prieur at gmail.com (Johann Prieur)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:54:15 +0100
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <b501d25f0802011234k13fe8bb6g2aae0cd2ae27287@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011234k13fe8bb6g2aae0cd2ae27287@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3fd4e69c0802011254w11c17cb8rd3df6d7e93248f4c@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 9:34 PM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2008 9:25 PM, Johann Prieur <johann.prieur at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Before writing pages of worthy documentation, I'd like that we get some
> > orientation :
> >
> > - What is our priority in terms of protocol version? Is it worthy to
> take
> > time to document older versions of MSNP? Should we only focus on the
> latest
> > version? Should we choose some editorial style defining clearly what are
> the
> > changes between versions ("transition" pages)?
>
> I think we should focus on MSNP15 (the latest AFAIK), so we have one
> protocol
> version well documented. If a new one come up, we should still work to
> complete the MSNP15 documentation, when its complete we can move to the
> next one if it add some significant features, if it doesn't, then we can
> wait
> until a major new version.
>

I share the same point of view.


>
> >  - What do you think YOU can bring in term of documentation? The goal
> here
> > is to define some tasks and assign them to volunteers so that we don't
> > replicate what another is doing and start getting a shape of what's
> coming.
>
> I guess the pymsn guys have almost all the MSNP15 protocol covered, we
> should
> hear what they have to say ;).
>  If there is some part still missing on their implementation I would
> love to try to
> investigate about it.
>
> So I guess we should document what they already know :P
>
> PS: emesenelib implementation is of MSNP13, some thigs are shared with
> MSNP15 so
> dx (the other developer) and I can document some of that parts and let
> pymsn et al
> document the parts that are particular to MSNP15.
>
> what do you think?
>

I'm one of the pymsn developers :)

Personally, I worked on reverse engineering most of the services then
implemented in pymsn, but I'm not the only one and maybe another one here
can do a better work than me. I bet what people can "document" is more
people-related than library or client related. We need to attribute task to
people, not project, really.

Johann
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From lschiere at pidgin.im  Fri Feb  1 15:54:49 2008
From: lschiere at pidgin.im (Luke Schierer)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 15:54:49 -0500
Subject: Request: Add Reply-To Header
In-Reply-To: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
References: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080201205449.GA27456@pidgin.im>

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 08:39:24PM +0000, Tom Hennigan wrote:
> Unless people really object, could an admin add a Reply-To header to  
> mails sent by the mailing list?
> 
> - Tom

While I myself am sometimes guilty of using a substandard mail client,
and thus using reply-all, proper mail clients can be configured to
recognize emails that have been sent to a list and provide a list-reply
to reply to such messages.

Added to that, these emails all come with a List-Id header, which _any_
decent client should be able to filter on. 

That being said, I don't really mind adding a reply-to header.  I will
NOT add subject munging.

luke


From stpeter at stpeter.im  Fri Feb  1 15:56:53 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:56:53 -0700
Subject: Bonjour documentation
In-Reply-To: <47A38442.5080205@stpeter.im>
References: <47A38442.5080205@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <47A38795.7000403@stpeter.im>

Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> I notice that Bonjour is listed on the wiki. 

I've updated the wiki page accordingly:

http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/Bonjour

/psa
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From elb at pidgin.im  Fri Feb  1 16:10:04 2008
From: elb at pidgin.im (Ethan Blanton)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:10:04 -0500
Subject: Request: Add Reply-To Header
In-Reply-To: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
References: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080201211004.GA31568@elb.elitists.net>

Tom Hennigan spake unto us the following wisdom:
> Unless people really object, could an admin add a Reply-To header to  
> mails sent by the mailing list?

Here are the standard arguments, presented reasonably well:

http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

I share Luke's feelings; I really don't like reply-to, and I use a
mailer which doesn't suck.  However, I am not the primary intended
user of this mailing list, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time
debating it if most of you *do* use mailers that suck and really want
this.

Ethan

-- 
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
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From elb at pidgin.im  Fri Feb  1 16:11:42 2008
From: elb at pidgin.im (Ethan Blanton)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 16:11:42 -0500
Subject: Bonjour documentation
In-Reply-To: <47A38795.7000403@stpeter.im>
References: <47A38442.5080205@stpeter.im> <47A38795.7000403@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <20080201211142.GB31568@elb.elitists.net>

Peter Saint-Andre spake unto us the following wisdom:
> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
> > I notice that Bonjour is listed on the wiki. 
> 
> I've updated the wiki page accordingly:
> 
> http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/Bonjour

Great!  This is exactly the sort of thing we want to see.  If the
proper answer to a particular protocol documentation bit is "Look over
there", that's fantastic, and we should do it.

Ethan

-- 
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Fri Feb  1 16:14:00 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:14:00 -0700
Subject: Bonjour documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080201211142.GB31568@elb.elitists.net>
References: <47A38442.5080205@stpeter.im> <47A38795.7000403@stpeter.im>
	<20080201211142.GB31568@elb.elitists.net>
Message-ID: <47A38B98.1070509@stpeter.im>

Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Peter Saint-Andre spake unto us the following wisdom:
>> Peter Saint-Andre wrote:
>>> I notice that Bonjour is listed on the wiki. 
>> I've updated the wiki page accordingly:
>>
>> http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/Bonjour
> 
> Great!  This is exactly the sort of thing we want to see.  If the
> proper answer to a particular protocol documentation bit is "Look over
> there", that's fantastic, and we should do it.

You betcha!

BTW, I poked the jabber transport developers about this effort, so we
may have some more troops joining our little army here soon. :)

/psa
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From dx at dxzone.com.ar  Fri Feb  1 16:58:03 2008
From: dx at dxzone.com.ar (Dx)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 18:58:03 -0300
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>

(resending to openim, sorry johann, seems that gmail didn't recognize
the mailing list)

On 2/1/08, Johann Prieur <johann.prieur at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Before writing pages of worthy documentation, I'd like that we get some
> orientation :
>
> - What is our priority in terms of protocol version? Is it worthy to take
> time to document older versions of MSNP? Should we only focus on the latest
> version? Should we choose some editorial style defining clearly what are the
> changes between versions ("transition" pages)?

I agree with mariano. Changes/Transition pages are a pest in msnpiki.
MSNP develops as client versions are released, so we should document
the last version completely, and when a new protocol version is
available, the previous version is "tagged" and left there only for
historical purposes and "bugfixes". We should hurry with this, and
have nice MSNP15 docs before MSNP16 is released (WLM 9.0, there are
leaked betas out there)

About documenting previous versions, I guess a link to hypothetic
would be OK :P, since microsoft will drop the older protocols support
someday.

>  - What do you think YOU can bring in term of documentation? The goal here
> is to define some tasks and assign them to volunteers so that we don't
> replicate what another is doing and start getting a shape of what's coming.
>

I am implementing right now a next-generation P2P stack (well, just
refactoring the previous one to build SLP messages with nice objects
:P), and i'm finding many interesting implementation details. I'd be
glad if someone lets me write (at least partially) the p2p transfers
part, since it is so clear and simple in my mind right now.

Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.


-- 
dx

(disclaimer: my english grammar may or may not be bad, that depends on
lots of variables that I am too lazy to consider, thanks)

From luismarianoguerra at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 17:14:43 2008
From: luismarianoguerra at gmail.com (Mariano Guerra)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:14:43 +0100
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.

I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
if no one oppose :D.

From felipe.contreras at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 18:21:37 2008
From: felipe.contreras at gmail.com (Felipe Contreras)
Date: Sat, 2 Feb 2008 01:21:37 +0200
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 2, 2008 12:14 AM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> > Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> > the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.
>
> I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
> make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
> if no one oppose :D.

I would say; go ahead!

I also just implemented http method so I can help you with that :)

Did you do it a single connection for ns/sb's or one per each?

-- 
Felipe Contreras

From tomhennigan at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 18:27:44 2008
From: tomhennigan at gmail.com (Tom Hennigan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:27:44 +0000
Subject: 1, 2, 3, testing
In-Reply-To: <cd302b220802010657q63cabe9dx8f5dd58c2cd2b378@mail.gmail.com>
References: <cd302b220801310937o253b67b7j837460fe7275f03@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A208E1.5070101@stpeter.im>
	<94B09A57-1B88-4DA7-AECB-0F16ADEE88EF@pidgin.im>
	<47A24AA1.6060700@simguy.net>
	<cd302b220801311904i79790b12nee892f8e2c507007@mail.gmail.com>
	<E69385A8-32FA-4077-A1C7-2364A319073B@gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802010657q63cabe9dx8f5dd58c2cd2b378@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1F76444E-2F45-4C44-890C-CECFB6001914@gmail.com>

On 1 Feb 2008, at 14:57, Dx wrote:

> On 2/1/08, Tom Hennigan <tomhennigan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm still around! I've put the design I've done online. You can  
>> find it
>> here: http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom/.
>> I thought a lack of images made the site slightly bland, so in this  
>> variant
>> (http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom-with-protocol-logos/ 
>> ),
>> I added 2 IM logos as a test (we won't be able to use these icons  
>> on the
>> final site).
>>
>> Please let me know if it's not what you wanted (the design was not  
>> talked
>> about before..), or if anyone has any suggestions =].
>>
>> Btw. The lang feature is functional in code, I just haven't added  
>> the french
>> translation, I enabled the flag in the footer as a demo of what we  
>> could
>> have.
>>
>
> Nice, my suggestions:
> - The reflection and the drop shadow of the header have almost the
> same contrast as the "imFreedom" title. A white border may help.
> - A bigger header, add more space there :D
> - Underlined section headers? Unless you add #anchor links..
> - The text is OK, but maybe s/data/documentation/g
> - emesene is not in the list :P ..ok, ok, we are not that big. And
> pymsn is lowercase, afaik
> - The pseudo CMS is nice, but some mod_rewrite love would be better.
> - I'm not sure about the page background and the footer.
>
> (note: i am here just to help with docs, i am not the one that says
> "this is what we wanted")
>
> Questions:
> - Isn't imfreedom the legal corporation created by pidgin to blah blah
> legal blah blah AOL blah blah? But, well, openim is also a jabber
> client.. so..
> - Will this integrate with mediawiki?
>
>

I've changed the text on the front page, but I haven't changed the  
images yet (I'm too tired lol!).
I added the mod_rewrite fun, you can request /pages/lang/page or / 
pages/page.
I don't think this design would work well with mediawiki... But thats  
just my 2c.
I'll look at changing the header etc tomorrow =]


From tomhennigan at gmail.com  Fri Feb  1 18:31:46 2008
From: tomhennigan at gmail.com (Tom Hennigan)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 23:31:46 +0000
Subject: 1, 2, 3, testing
In-Reply-To: <1F76444E-2F45-4C44-890C-CECFB6001914@gmail.com>
References: <cd302b220801310937o253b67b7j837460fe7275f03@mail.gmail.com>
	<47A208E1.5070101@stpeter.im>
	<94B09A57-1B88-4DA7-AECB-0F16ADEE88EF@pidgin.im>
	<47A24AA1.6060700@simguy.net>
	<cd302b220801311904i79790b12nee892f8e2c507007@mail.gmail.com>
	<E69385A8-32FA-4077-A1C7-2364A319073B@gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802010657q63cabe9dx8f5dd58c2cd2b378@mail.gmail.com>
	<1F76444E-2F45-4C44-890C-CECFB6001914@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E8177D9B-0560-4B15-9632-29A068B644EE@gmail.com>

On 1 Feb 2008, at 23:27, Tom Hennigan wrote:

> On 1 Feb 2008, at 14:57, Dx wrote:
>
>> On 2/1/08, Tom Hennigan <tomhennigan at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm still around! I've put the design I've done online. You can  
>>> find it
>>> here: http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom/.
>>> I thought a lack of images made the site slightly bland, so in  
>>> this variant
>>> (http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom-with-protocol-logos/ 
>>> ),
>>> I added 2 IM logos as a test (we won't be able to use these icons  
>>> on the
>>> final site).
>>>
>>> Please let me know if it's not what you wanted (the design was not  
>>> talked
>>> about before..), or if anyone has any suggestions =].
>>>
>>> Btw. The lang feature is functional in code, I just haven't added  
>>> the french
>>> translation, I enabled the flag in the footer as a demo of what we  
>>> could
>>> have.
>>>
>>
>> Nice, my suggestions:
>> - The reflection and the drop shadow of the header have almost the
>> same contrast as the "imFreedom" title. A white border may help.
>> - A bigger header, add more space there :D
>> - Underlined section headers? Unless you add #anchor links..
>> - The text is OK, but maybe s/data/documentation/g
>> - emesene is not in the list :P ..ok, ok, we are not that big. And
>> pymsn is lowercase, afaik
>> - The pseudo CMS is nice, but some mod_rewrite love would be better.
>> - I'm not sure about the page background and the footer.
>>
>> (note: i am here just to help with docs, i am not the one that says
>> "this is what we wanted")
>>
>> Questions:
>> - Isn't imfreedom the legal corporation created by pidgin to blah  
>> blah
>> legal blah blah AOL blah blah? But, well, openim is also a jabber
>> client.. so..
>> - Will this integrate with mediawiki?
>>
>>
>
> I've changed the text on the front page, but I haven't changed the  
> images yet (I'm too tired lol!).
> I added the mod_rewrite fun, you can request /pages/lang/page or / 
> pages/page.
> I don't think this design would work well with mediawiki... But  
> thats just my 2c.
> I'll look at changing the header etc tomorrow =]
>

Sorry the new version is online here: http://hosting.notjustanothermacuser.com/imfreedom-with-rewrite/
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From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Fri Feb  1 21:52:45 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:52:45 -0500
Subject: Request: Add Reply-To Header
In-Reply-To: <20080201211004.GA31568@elb.elitists.net>
References: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
	<20080201211004.GA31568@elb.elitists.net>
Message-ID: <20080202025245.GA7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Hi,
I use mutt over a terminal as mail client, and it doesn't recognize the list, so I need to do a reply-all, which I am really not used to doing.. 
I prefer the reply-to header as this makes it much easier.. for me at least...
we could try to vote on who wants it and who doesn't (or don't care) then decide.. I would vote for having a reply-to header.

Subject mangling would be nice, helps me see what was sent where, but it's not necessary at all, so I really don't mind it the way it is.

KaKaRoTo

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 04:10:04PM -0500, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Tom Hennigan spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > Unless people really object, could an admin add a Reply-To header to  
> > mails sent by the mailing list?
> 
> Here are the standard arguments, presented reasonably well:
> 
> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> 
> I share Luke's feelings; I really don't like reply-to, and I use a
> mailer which doesn't suck.  However, I am not the primary intended
> user of this mailing list, so I'm not going to spend a lot of time
> debating it if most of you *do* use mailers that suck and really want
> this.
> 
> Ethan
> 
> -- 
> The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
> for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
> determined to commit crimes.
> 		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764



> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim


From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Fri Feb  1 21:57:49 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 21:57:49 -0500
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Hi,
I agree on keeping the latest only, I don't like the 'transition' thing on msnpiki, it's useful when you have a preivous implementation but it's 
a pain in the a** if you want to start implementing a new client. What I would suggest is having the latest documented, when we move from one 
protocol version to another, we couldcopy the MSNP15 to MSNP16, set MSNP15 as obsolete, and modify the MSNP16 to show the changes, in order to 
always have one full spec for one protocol. And we should maybe also add a 'changes' page so that already existing clients can look up the 
differences, instead of rereading the whole msnp16 thing and looking for changes.. 
in short :
MSNP15 (obsolete)
Changes from MSNP15 to MSNP16
MSNP16 (full spec)

About documentation, I pretty much know everything there is to know about the protocol, hehe.. I've been reverse engineering and implementing the 
protocol for 6 years now so anything you can't do, I can take care of it. I know the http gateway stuff, msnp2p, file transfers, webcam, etc..
I can document what I see missing, but I could get webcam protocol assigned to me if you want, as well as OIM, Spaces... As well as MSNP2P if 
there's something missing. 
Is it ok with everyone ?

KaKaRoTo

On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 01:21:37AM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Feb 2, 2008 12:14 AM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> > > Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> > > the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.
> >
> > I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
> > make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
> > if no one oppose :D.
> 
> I would say; go ahead!
> 
> I also just implemented http method so I can help you with that :)
> 
> Did you do it a single connection for ns/sb's or one per each?
> 
> -- 
> Felipe Contreras
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim

From elb at pidgin.im  Fri Feb  1 22:06:05 2008
From: elb at pidgin.im (Ethan Blanton)
Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2008 22:06:05 -0500
Subject: Request: Add Reply-To Header
In-Reply-To: <20080202025245.GA7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <0667EDBD-12DA-4D77-991E-5642691D0085@gmail.com>
	<20080201211004.GA31568@elb.elitists.net>
	<20080202025245.GA7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <20080202030605.GA1389@elb.elitists.net>

Youness Alaoui spake unto us the following wisdom:
> I use mutt over a terminal as mail client, and it doesn't recognize
> the list, so I need to do a reply-all, which I am really not used to
> doing..  I prefer the reply-to header as this makes it much easier..
> for me at least... we could try to vote on who wants it and who
> doesn't (or don't care) then decide.. I would vote for having a
> reply-to header.

Put 'subscribe openim at imfreedom.org' in your .muttrc, and it will
recognize the list.  You will then have three reply options -- 'r' for
reply to sender, 'L' for reply to list, and 'g' for reply to all.
This is the correct way to handle things in any sane mailreader.  Mutt
has fantastic support for mailing lists.

> Subject mangling would be nice, helps me see what was sent where, but
> it's not necessary at all, so I really don't mind it the way it is.

Put:

:0:
* ^List-Id: <openim\.imfreedom\.org>
{
    SUBJECT=`formail -c -xSubject:`
    :0fw
    | formail -I "Subject: [openim] $SUBJECT"
}

in your .procmailrc.

While I don't feel *too* strongly about reply-to mangling (it's
obviously wrong and broken, but easy enough to hack around if you have
to with rare ill-effects), subject mangling is a *really* bad idea.

Ethan

-- 
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
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From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Tue Feb  5 20:14:12 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Tue, 5 Feb 2008 20:14:12 -0500
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Hi,
http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN

Initial page set up in there.. should be improved and data copied from the other sites into that one (link where necessary like for the ISF 
format, no need to duplicate that one).
We should also divide the page into the different sub protocols. All MSN related pages should be in the MSN category. So we would have :
MSN:MSNP2P
MSN:SSO
MSN:Webcam
MSN:Commands
MSN:Gateway
etc...

more organisation can come later if necessary.
If you feel at easy with a part of the protocol, just create your own page (after checking the recent changes and making sure it's not already 
started) and start documenting it.. we could link all those pages to the main MSN page, and format everything correctly after..


KaKaRoTo

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 09:57:49PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> Hi,
> I agree on keeping the latest only, I don't like the 'transition' thing on msnpiki, it's useful when you have a preivous implementation but it's 
> a pain in the a** if you want to start implementing a new client. What I would suggest is having the latest documented, when we move from one 
> protocol version to another, we couldcopy the MSNP15 to MSNP16, set MSNP15 as obsolete, and modify the MSNP16 to show the changes, in order to 
> always have one full spec for one protocol. And we should maybe also add a 'changes' page so that already existing clients can look up the 
> differences, instead of rereading the whole msnp16 thing and looking for changes.. 
> in short :
> MSNP15 (obsolete)
> Changes from MSNP15 to MSNP16
> MSNP16 (full spec)
> 
> About documentation, I pretty much know everything there is to know about the protocol, hehe.. I've been reverse engineering and implementing the 
> protocol for 6 years now so anything you can't do, I can take care of it. I know the http gateway stuff, msnp2p, file transfers, webcam, etc..
> I can document what I see missing, but I could get webcam protocol assigned to me if you want, as well as OIM, Spaces... As well as MSNP2P if 
> there's something missing. 
> Is it ok with everyone ?
> 
> KaKaRoTo
> 
> On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 01:21:37AM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> > On Feb 2, 2008 12:14 AM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> > > > Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> > > > the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.
> > >
> > > I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
> > > make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
> > > if no one oppose :D.
> > 
> > I would say; go ahead!
> > 
> > I also just implemented http method so I can help you with that :)
> > 
> > Did you do it a single connection for ns/sb's or one per each?
> > 
> > -- 
> > Felipe Contreras
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openim mailing list
> > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim

From alangh at adiumx.com  Wed Feb  6 18:23:48 2008
From: alangh at adiumx.com (Alan Humpherys)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 16:23:48 -0700
Subject: Getting started on AIM and Yahoo protocols
Message-ID: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>

I added some basic starting pages for the Yahoo and AIM protocols on  
the Wiki, and am interested in finding out who else on the list may be  
interested in documenting those protocols.

By the way, I believe we need to do something to prevent spambots from  
taking over the site.  We should either  disable account creation or  
use some sort of a "captcha" on account creation or page submission to  
slow down the spammers.

Does anyone know if MediaWiki supports that type of spam prevention?

- Alan
______
Alan Humpherys
Adium Development Team
alangh at adiumx.com
http://www.adiumx.com



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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Wed Feb  6 18:27:13 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:27:13 -0700
Subject: Getting started on AIM and Yahoo protocols
In-Reply-To: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>
References: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>
Message-ID: <47AA4251.7050006@stpeter.im>

Alan Humpherys wrote:
> I added some basic starting pages for the Yahoo and AIM protocols on the
> Wiki, and am interested in finding out who else on the list may be
> interested in documenting those protocols.

I'll ping my Jabber transport developer friends again...

> By the way, I believe we need to do something to prevent spambots from
> taking over the site.  We should either  disable account creation or use
> some sort of a "captcha" on account creation or page submission to slow
> down the spammers.
> 
> Does anyone know if MediaWiki supports that type of spam prevention?

There are probably some plugins for that.

FWIW, at wiki.jabber.org we ask potential contributors to ping a
sysadmin for posting privileges. I think the community of people who
might update the openim wiki is small enough that such a requirement
would not be a major imposition.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/

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From elb at pidgin.im  Wed Feb  6 19:02:06 2008
From: elb at pidgin.im (Ethan Blanton)
Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2008 19:02:06 -0500
Subject: Getting started on AIM and Yahoo protocols
In-Reply-To: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>
References: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>
Message-ID: <20080207000206.GA13769@elb.elitists.net>

Alan Humpherys spake unto us the following wisdom:
> By the way, I believe we need to do something to prevent spambots from  
> taking over the site.  We should either  disable account creation or  
> use some sort of a "captcha" on account creation or page submission to  
> slow down the spammers.

For the record, we have found that simply requiring an account has
been sufficient on several other wikis with which I am acquainted.

Ethan

-- 
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
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From norman at rasmussen.co.za  Thu Feb  7 17:07:20 2008
From: norman at rasmussen.co.za (Norman Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 00:07:20 +0200
Subject: MXit protocol
Message-ID: <5b698f5a0802071407r6efa343g603855a34972291b@mail.gmail.com>

FYI: I've added a stub page for MXit too.  I just copied the yahoo stub and
changed the links to the MXit wikipedia page, and the current protocol
documentation wiki.

-- 
- Norman Rasmussen
- Email: norman at rasmussen.co.za
- Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/
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From norman at rasmussen.co.za  Thu Feb  7 17:11:47 2008
From: norman at rasmussen.co.za (Norman Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 00:11:47 +0200
Subject: Skype protocol
Message-ID: <5b698f5a0802071411t668920edu290dbdffe4be087c@mail.gmail.com>

Is there any decent public reverse engineering of Skype yet?

I know there was a reportedly Chinese project that was doing Skype, but I've
never heard anything more.  I have read several
'how-to-block-skype-at-your-firewall' pdf's that explain the protocol at a
lower level, but I'm not sure if they're complete enough to write a full
client.  There were a few updates last week to the NakedSkype page on the
Skype wiki, but nothing amazing.

-- 
- Norman Rasmussen
- Email: norman at rasmussen.co.za
- Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/
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From stpeter at stpeter.im  Thu Feb  7 17:13:11 2008
From: stpeter at stpeter.im (Peter Saint-Andre)
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 15:13:11 -0700
Subject: MXit protocol
In-Reply-To: <5b698f5a0802071407r6efa343g603855a34972291b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b698f5a0802071407r6efa343g603855a34972291b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47AB8277.40201@stpeter.im>

Norman Rasmussen wrote:
> FYI: I've added a stub page for MXit too.  I just copied the yahoo stub and
> changed the links to the MXit wikipedia page, and the current protocol
> documentation wiki.

I thought MXit was using XMPP?

/psa

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From norman at rasmussen.co.za  Fri Feb  8 02:15:49 2008
From: norman at rasmussen.co.za (Norman Rasmussen)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 09:15:49 +0200
Subject: MXit protocol
In-Reply-To: <47AB8277.40201@stpeter.im>
References: <5b698f5a0802071407r6efa343g603855a34972291b@mail.gmail.com>
	<47AB8277.40201@stpeter.im>
Message-ID: <5b698f5a0802072315k20a41d12m2db1ae585db6e93c@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 8, 2008 12:13 AM, Peter Saint-Andre <stpeter at stpeter.im> wrote:

> Norman Rasmussen wrote:
> > FYI: I've added a stub page for MXit too.  I just copied the yahoo stub
> and
> > changed the links to the MXit wikipedia page, and the current protocol
> > documentation wiki.
>
> I thought MXit was using XMPP?
>

They're using ejabbed's as their backend servers, but they've firewalled the
standard jabber ports and are using their own protocol to connect from their
java client to some custom gateway.  This makes it impossible to use a
standard jabber client to connect  (Additionally their s2s is down most of
the time for some reason - apparently open federation just isn't safe
enough)

-- 
- Norman Rasmussen
- Email: norman at rasmussen.co.za
- Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/
-------------- next part --------------
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From ali.sabil at gmail.com  Fri Feb  8 08:01:18 2008
From: ali.sabil at gmail.com (Ali Sabil)
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2008 14:01:18 +0100
Subject: Skype protocol
In-Reply-To: <5b698f5a0802071411t668920edu290dbdffe4be087c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5b698f5a0802071411t668920edu290dbdffe4be087c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6b4de4d80802080501i7f64e2ffl18edffec21516dfe@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 7, 2008 11:11 PM, Norman Rasmussen <norman at rasmussen.co.za> wrote:
> Is there any decent public reverse engineering of Skype yet?
>
> I know there was a reportedly Chinese project that was doing Skype, but I've
> never heard anything more.  I have read several
> 'how-to-block-skype-at-your-firewall' pdf's that explain the protocol at a
> lower level, but I'm not sure if they're complete enough to write a full
> client.  There were a few updates last week to the NakedSkype page on the
> Skype wiki, but nothing amazing.
>
> --

Unfortunately there isn't much available about skype, all the
available resources are here
http://www1.cs.columbia.edu/~salman/skype/index.html

If you are interested, you might start merging the informations
together from the available pdfs into a wiki page :)

Cheers,

--
Ali

From alangh at adiumx.com  Sat Feb  9 19:13:07 2008
From: alangh at adiumx.com (Alan Humpherys)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 17:13:07 -0700
Subject: Getting started on AIM and Yahoo protocols
In-Reply-To: <20080207000206.GA13769@elb.elitists.net>
References: <C7531977-3223-4A7F-AF9F-056CE27B99AE@adiumx.com>
	<20080207000206.GA13769@elb.elitists.net>
Message-ID: <115544A9-FEA1-419A-9737-B37B8DD01A95@adiumx.com>



On Feb 6, 2008, at 5:02 PM, Ethan Blanton wrote:

> Alan Humpherys spake unto us the following wisdom:
>> By the way, I believe we need to do something to prevent spambots  
>> from
>> taking over the site.  We should either  disable account creation or
>> use some sort of a "captcha" on account creation or page submission  
>> to
>> slow down the spammers.
>
> For the record, we have found that simply requiring an account has
> been sufficient on several other wikis with which I am acquainted.
>
> Ethan

We hosted a MediaWiki for Fire, and there were spambots which created  
accounts and posted messages to them.  I guess we were just lucky....  
(in a bad way)

- Alan

From dx at dxzone.com.ar  Sat Feb  9 16:56:08 2008
From: dx at dxzone.com.ar (Dx)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:56:08 -0300
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>

Added an "index" section filled with nice red links inviting people to
write something in there.

What could be improved/added/modified:
-The location of the Login and SOAP sections. Login requires SOAP
-Webcam: I added it in the Other features section. I'm not sure if it
uses SLP for session initiation, then it would fit in P2P.
-Old-style invitations, not just file transfer. Some audio/video
features in the latest versions of the official client still use this.
-Maybe a dedicated section for vv features?

Also, navigation, anyone with leet wiki skillz here?


On 2/5/08, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN
>
> Initial page set up in there.. should be improved and data copied from the other sites into that one (link where necessary like for the ISF
> format, no need to duplicate that one).
> We should also divide the page into the different sub protocols. All MSN related pages should be in the MSN category. So we would have :
> MSN:MSNP2P
> MSN:SSO
> MSN:Webcam
> MSN:Commands
> MSN:Gateway
> etc...
>
> more organisation can come later if necessary.
> If you feel at easy with a part of the protocol, just create your own page (after checking the recent changes and making sure it's not already
> started) and start documenting it.. we could link all those pages to the main MSN page, and format everything correctly after..
>
>
> KaKaRoTo
>
> On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 09:57:49PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I agree on keeping the latest only, I don't like the 'transition' thing on msnpiki, it's useful when you have a preivous implementation but it's
> > a pain in the a** if you want to start implementing a new client. What I would suggest is having the latest documented, when we move from one
> > protocol version to another, we couldcopy the MSNP15 to MSNP16, set MSNP15 as obsolete, and modify the MSNP16 to show the changes, in order to
> > always have one full spec for one protocol. And we should maybe also add a 'changes' page so that already existing clients can look up the
> > differences, instead of rereading the whole msnp16 thing and looking for changes..
> > in short :
> > MSNP15 (obsolete)
> > Changes from MSNP15 to MSNP16
> > MSNP16 (full spec)
> >
> > About documentation, I pretty much know everything there is to know about the protocol, hehe.. I've been reverse engineering and implementing the
> > protocol for 6 years now so anything you can't do, I can take care of it. I know the http gateway stuff, msnp2p, file transfers, webcam, etc..
> > I can document what I see missing, but I could get webcam protocol assigned to me if you want, as well as OIM, Spaces... As well as MSNP2P if
> > there's something missing.
> > Is it ok with everyone ?
> >
> > KaKaRoTo
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 01:21:37AM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> > > On Feb 2, 2008 12:14 AM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> > > > > Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> > > > > the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.
> > > >
> > > > I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
> > > > make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
> > > > if no one oppose :D.
> > >
> > > I would say; go ahead!
> > >
> > > I also just implemented http method so I can help you with that :)
> > >
> > > Did you do it a single connection for ns/sb's or one per each?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Felipe Contreras
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Openim mailing list
> > > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openim mailing list
> > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
>


-- 
dx

(disclaimer: my english grammar may or may not be bad, that depends on
lots of variables that I am too lazy to consider, thanks)

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Sat Feb  9 23:40:53 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:40:53 -0500
Subject: [kakaroto@kakaroto.homelinux.net: Re: Request: Add Reply-To Header]
Message-ID: <20080210044053.GA32309@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Yeah.. of course, I again forgot to CC the ML...
lol

----- Forwarded message from Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> -----

From: Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net>
To: Ethan Blanton <elb at pidgin.im>
Subject: Re: Request: Add Reply-To Header

Ok thanks, but it doesn't help.. first, by adding the 'subscribe' in muttrc it will change all the 'From' fields into 'To: openim.." or "CC: 
openim.." so I can't see who wrote the mail unless I open it.
Also, the 'r'/'l'/'g' already works without adding the 'subscribe' and that's what I use when I think about it, but I'm just too used to 
typing 'r' to reply... if I could configure it to send to the mailing list automatically when I press 'r', that would help!

Thanks!

KaKaRoTo

On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 10:06:05PM -0500, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> Youness Alaoui spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > I use mutt over a terminal as mail client, and it doesn't recognize
> > the list, so I need to do a reply-all, which I am really not used to
> > doing..  I prefer the reply-to header as this makes it much easier..
> > for me at least... we could try to vote on who wants it and who
> > doesn't (or don't care) then decide.. I would vote for having a
> > reply-to header.
> 
> Put 'subscribe openim at imfreedom.org' in your .muttrc, and it will
> recognize the list.  You will then have three reply options -- 'r' for
> reply to sender, 'L' for reply to list, and 'g' for reply to all.
> This is the correct way to handle things in any sane mailreader.  Mutt
> has fantastic support for mailing lists.
> 
> > Subject mangling would be nice, helps me see what was sent where, but
> > it's not necessary at all, so I really don't mind it the way it is.
> 
> Put:
> 
> :0:
> * ^List-Id: <openim\.imfreedom\.org>
> {
>     SUBJECT=`formail -c -xSubject:`
>     :0fw
>     | formail -I "Subject: [openim] $SUBJECT"
> }
> 
> in your .procmailrc.
> 
> While I don't feel *too* strongly about reply-to mangling (it's
> obviously wrong and broken, but easy enough to hack around if you have
> to with rare ill-effects), subject mangling is a *really* bad idea.
> 
> Ethan
> 
> -- 
> The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
> for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
> determined to commit crimes.
> 		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764



> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim


----- End forwarded message -----

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Sat Feb  9 23:35:49 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 23:35:49 -0500
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent it in private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous 2 mails 
before continuing...

ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there.. 

On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3 stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D 
The audio is the problem now because of the stupid snack extension for tcl opening/closing the audio device on every chunk of sound (every 
50ms).. and now, I have to write a Tcl extension for libavcodec... apart from that, the only remaining challenge is encoding WMV3 (no encoder 
exists in open source), but I'll try to send ML20 frames and see if WLM uses the FCC in the header to decode, or if it uses the WMV3 
decoder hardcoded and skips the FCC field... if it works, then aMSN might be the first open source solution with interop audio/video 
conversations :D 


KaKaRoTo

On Sat, Feb 09, 2008 at 11:53:55PM -0300, Dx wrote:
> vv == voice/video, what you've just explained. "vv" is just a
> protocol-independent name used in pidgin/adium, and maybe jabber. Uhm,
> it's also the same as A/V :P
> 
> BTW, you did not send this to the mailing list, was that intentional?
> 
> 
> On 2/9/08, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> > cool, nice idea.
> > About webcam, there are multiple A/V protocols, there's the 'webcam', the 'video conference', the 'computer call', and the old style style video
> > conference. webcam is unidirectional video and uses msnp2p, video conference is bidirectional audio and video and uses the same protocol as
> > webcam (EXACT same in every little detail) the only thing that changes is the Context field when sending an invite (amsn now has a branch
> > supporting video conference and it's just an 'if/else' changing the context field, everything else is the same and it works just fine), the only
> > other difference is of course the codecs being used being different (+ some payloading for specifying if it's an audio or a video frame
> > received...), so that only applies on what you receive once you established a connection.
> > old style invitations (video conference and file transfers, whiteboard sharing, etc..) are not used anymore unless your client id has the msncX
> > (for FT) capabilities flags disabled (windows messenger 5.x interop) or the 'sip' flag (for computer call).
> > What's the "vv features" ?
> >
> > KaKaRoTo
> >
> > On Sat, Feb 09, 2008 at 06:56:08PM -0300, Dx wrote:
> > > Added an "index" section filled with nice red links inviting people to
> > > write something in there.
> > >
> > > What could be improved/added/modified:
> > > -The location of the Login and SOAP sections. Login requires SOAP
> > > -Webcam: I added it in the Other features section. I'm not sure if it
> > > uses SLP for session initiation, then it would fit in P2P.
> > > -Old-style invitations, not just file transfer. Some audio/video
> > > features in the latest versions of the official client still use this.
> > > -Maybe a dedicated section for vv features?
> > >
> > > Also, navigation, anyone with leet wiki skillz here?
> > >
> > >
> > > On 2/5/08, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> > > > Hi,
> > > > http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN
> > > >
> > > > Initial page set up in there.. should be improved and data copied from the other sites into that one (link where necessary like for the ISF
> > > > format, no need to duplicate that one).
> > > > We should also divide the page into the different sub protocols. All MSN related pages should be in the MSN category. So we would have :
> > > > MSN:MSNP2P
> > > > MSN:SSO
> > > > MSN:Webcam
> > > > MSN:Commands
> > > > MSN:Gateway
> > > > etc...
> > > >
> > > > more organisation can come later if necessary.
> > > > If you feel at easy with a part of the protocol, just create your own page (after checking the recent changes and making sure it's not already
> > > > started) and start documenting it.. we could link all those pages to the main MSN page, and format everything correctly after..
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > KaKaRoTo
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 09:57:49PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > I agree on keeping the latest only, I don't like the 'transition' thing on msnpiki, it's useful when you have a preivous implementation but it's
> > > > > a pain in the a** if you want to start implementing a new client. What I would suggest is having the latest documented, when we move from one
> > > > > protocol version to another, we couldcopy the MSNP15 to MSNP16, set MSNP15 as obsolete, and modify the MSNP16 to show the changes, in order to
> > > > > always have one full spec for one protocol. And we should maybe also add a 'changes' page so that already existing clients can look up the
> > > > > differences, instead of rereading the whole msnp16 thing and looking for changes..
> > > > > in short :
> > > > > MSNP15 (obsolete)
> > > > > Changes from MSNP15 to MSNP16
> > > > > MSNP16 (full spec)
> > > > >
> > > > > About documentation, I pretty much know everything there is to know about the protocol, hehe.. I've been reverse engineering and implementing the
> > > > > protocol for 6 years now so anything you can't do, I can take care of it. I know the http gateway stuff, msnp2p, file transfers, webcam, etc..
> > > > > I can document what I see missing, but I could get webcam protocol assigned to me if you want, as well as OIM, Spaces... As well as MSNP2P if
> > > > > there's something missing.
> > > > > Is it ok with everyone ?
> > > > >
> > > > > KaKaRoTo
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sat, Feb 02, 2008 at 01:21:37AM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> > > > > > On Feb 2, 2008 12:14 AM, Mariano Guerra <luismarianoguerra at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 1, 2008 10:58 PM, Dx <dx at dxzone.com.ar> wrote:
> > > > > > > > Also I would love to see those things left apart in msnpiki, such as
> > > > > > > > the HTTP method documentation, which is only available in hypothetic.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I implemented once a hackish http support for emesenelib and now I have to
> > > > > > > make it right, so I can document the http method while I rewrite that
> > > > > > > if no one oppose :D.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I would say; go ahead!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I also just implemented http method so I can help you with that :)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Did you do it a single connection for ns/sb's or one per each?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Felipe Contreras
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Openim mailing list
> > > > > > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > > > > > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Openim mailing list
> > > > > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > > > > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Openim mailing list
> > > > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > > > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > dx
> > >
> > > (disclaimer: my english grammar may or may not be bad, that depends on
> > > lots of variables that I am too lazy to consider, thanks)
> >
> 
> 
> -- 
> dx

From dx at dxzone.com.ar  Sun Feb 10 10:04:53 2008
From: dx at dxzone.com.ar (Dx)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:04:53 -0300
Subject: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <cd302b220802100704y450a5f56nca2e4b8ef5c3f7e1@mail.gmail.com>

On 2/10/08, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent it in private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous 2 mails
> before continuing...
>
> ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there..


Ok, added and filled Audio/Video section, filled the other features
section, and added a reference section[1], that should be in pseudo
cheat-sheet format.

I added Voice clips under Audio/Video and not inside msnobj based
transfers because it uses the siren codec. If you disagree, remember:
this is a mailing list, that is a wiki, and I am an human (AFAIK).

Still open issues:
-The location of the Login and SOAP sections. Login requires SOAP



> On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3 stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D

You said WMV3. Beware of mainstream distros: (WARNING: rant)

-Debian: AAAARGH IT CONTAINS RESTRICTED PROPIETARY NON-FREE LOCKED
SOFTWARE! REMOVE IT!
-Ubuntu: Great, non-free software, we'd like to keep it in the main
repos but that wouldn't be cool, so let's use multiverse!
-Fedora: Damn, if we include this redhat will have serious legal problems.

They did the same with mplayer (libavcodec)



footnotes
[1] http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN:Reference

-- 
dx

From norman at rasmussen.co.za  Sun Feb 10 15:15:54 2008
From: norman at rasmussen.co.za (Norman Rasmussen)
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:15:54 +0200
Subject: [kakaroto@kakaroto.homelinux.net: Re: Request: Add Reply-To
	Header]
In-Reply-To: <20080210044053.GA32309@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <20080210044053.GA32309@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <5b698f5a0802101215p19bfa85lcfd3910ed9e0448d@mail.gmail.com>

as much as reply-to mangling is bad, +1 to add a reply-to header.  (+2 for
Google adding an option to make the default reply on message from a mailing
list configurable)

On Feb 10, 2008 6:40 AM, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net>
wrote:

> Yeah.. of course, I again forgot to CC the ML...
> lol
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Youness Alaoui <
> kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> -----
>
> From: Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net>
> To: Ethan Blanton <elb at pidgin.im>
> Subject: Re: Request: Add Reply-To Header
>
> Ok thanks, but it doesn't help.. first, by adding the 'subscribe' in
> muttrc it will change all the 'From' fields into 'To: openim.." or "CC:
> openim.." so I can't see who wrote the mail unless I open it.
> Also, the 'r'/'l'/'g' already works without adding the 'subscribe' and
> that's what I use when I think about it, but I'm just too used to
> typing 'r' to reply... if I could configure it to send to the mailing list
> automatically when I press 'r', that would help!
>
> Thanks!
>
> KaKaRoTo
>
> On Fri, Feb 01, 2008 at 10:06:05PM -0500, Ethan Blanton wrote:
> > Youness Alaoui spake unto us the following wisdom:
> > > I use mutt over a terminal as mail client, and it doesn't recognize
> > > the list, so I need to do a reply-all, which I am really not used to
> > > doing..  I prefer the reply-to header as this makes it much easier..
> > > for me at least... we could try to vote on who wants it and who
> > > doesn't (or don't care) then decide.. I would vote for having a
> > > reply-to header.
> >
> > Put 'subscribe openim at imfreedom.org' in your .muttrc, and it will
> > recognize the list.  You will then have three reply options -- 'r' for
> > reply to sender, 'L' for reply to list, and 'g' for reply to all.
> > This is the correct way to handle things in any sane mailreader.  Mutt
> > has fantastic support for mailing lists.
> >
> > > Subject mangling would be nice, helps me see what was sent where, but
> > > it's not necessary at all, so I really don't mind it the way it is.
> >
> > Put:
> >
> > :0:
> > * ^List-Id: <openim\.imfreedom\.org>
> > {
> >     SUBJECT=`formail -c -xSubject:`
> >     :0fw
> >     | formail -I "Subject: [openim] $SUBJECT"
> > }
> >
> > in your .procmailrc.
> >
> > While I don't feel *too* strongly about reply-to mangling (it's
> > obviously wrong and broken, but easy enough to hack around if you have
> > to with rare ill-effects), subject mangling is a *really* bad idea.
> >
> > Ethan
> >
> > --
> > The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
> > for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
> > determined to commit crimes.
> >               -- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
>
>
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openim mailing list
> > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
>
>
> ----- End forwarded message -----
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
>



-- 
- Norman Rasmussen
- Email: norman at rasmussen.co.za
- Home page: http://norman.rasmussen.co.za/
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From felipe.contreras at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 08:29:38 2008
From: felipe.contreras at gmail.com (Felipe Contreras)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:29:38 +0200
Subject: Protocol Freedom Information Foundation
Message-ID: <94a0d4530802110529t50492669g850030f248bfa1c2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Just forwarding a comment on the old fd.o bug 12237:

Hi Folks,
  Just as a side note to a closed bug. It might be worth talking to the
Protocol Freedom Information Foundation. They may be able to get you the MSN
specs as part of the EU agreement from Microsoft. - Worth a try anyway.

http://www.protocolfreedom.org/


I think we should definitely try this.

Best regards.

-- 
Felipe Contreras

From seanegan at gmail.com  Mon Feb 11 14:12:12 2008
From: seanegan at gmail.com (Sean Egan)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 11:12:12 -0800
Subject: Protocol Freedom Information Foundation
In-Reply-To: <94a0d4530802110529t50492669g850030f248bfa1c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <94a0d4530802110529t50492669g850030f248bfa1c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e61d333f0802111112i6898738ck849101da2b4d0262@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 11, 2008 5:29 AM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> Hi Folks,
>   Just as a side note to a closed bug. It might be worth talking to the
> Protocol Freedom Information Foundation. They may be able to get you the MSN
> specs as part of the EU agreement from Microsoft. - Worth a try anyway.
> http://www.protocolfreedom.org/
> I think we should definitely try this.

It looks like protocolfreedom.org is run by the Software Freedom Law
Center (http://softwarefreedom.org), who represent us. The web design
is pretty much the same; the project is driven by Samba, another
Software Freeom client, and the name ends with "Freedom" (Guess who
came up with IM Freedom?).

I'll get in touch with them and see if there's anything we can get involved in.

-s.

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Mon Feb 11 18:04:34 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 18:04:34 -0500
Subject: Protocol Freedom Information Foundation
In-Reply-To: <e61d333f0802111112i6898738ck849101da2b4d0262@mail.gmail.com>
References: <94a0d4530802110529t50492669g850030f248bfa1c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<e61d333f0802111112i6898738ck849101da2b4d0262@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080211230434.GA5236@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Cool, that could be very helpful :p 

KaKaRoTo

On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 11:12:12AM -0800, Sean Egan wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2008 5:29 AM, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Hi Folks,
> >   Just as a side note to a closed bug. It might be worth talking to the
> > Protocol Freedom Information Foundation. They may be able to get you the MSN
> > specs as part of the EU agreement from Microsoft. - Worth a try anyway.
> > http://www.protocolfreedom.org/
> > I think we should definitely try this.
> 
> It looks like protocolfreedom.org is run by the Software Freedom Law
> Center (http://softwarefreedom.org), who represent us. The web design
> is pretty much the same; the project is driven by Samba, another
> Software Freeom client, and the name ends with "Freedom" (Guess who
> came up with IM Freedom?).
> 
> I'll get in touch with them and see if there's anything we can get involved in.
> 
> -s.
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim

From alangh at adiumx.com  Mon Feb 11 22:14:32 2008
From: alangh at adiumx.com (Alan Humpherys)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 20:14:32 -0700
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <3fd4e69c0802011225t2b057f09rcc1c0d991062d866@mail.gmail.com>
	<cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>

Great job on the WMV3 decoding!  The lack of an open source codec for  
the MSN voice/video protocol has been a serious impediment to getting  
MSN v/v working on the Mac.  (My understanding was that Linux  
previously only worked because mplayer used the windows media player  
DLL in compatibility mode.)

Alan


On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Youness Alaoui wrote:

> arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent  
> it in private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous  
> 2 mails
> before continuing...
>
> ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely  
> necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there..
>
> On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3  
> stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D
> The audio is the problem now because of the stupid snack extension  
> for tcl opening/closing the audio device on every chunk of sound  
> (every
> 50ms).. and now, I have to write a Tcl extension for libavcodec...  
> apart from that, the only remaining challenge is encoding WMV3 (no  
> encoder
> exists in open source), but I'll try to send ML20 frames and see if  
> WLM uses the FCC in the header to decode, or if it uses the WMV3
> decoder hardcoded and skips the FCC field... if it works, then aMSN  
> might be the first open source solution with interop audio/video
> conversations :D
>
>
> KaKaRoTo

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Mon Feb 11 23:58:56 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:58:56 -0500
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
References: <cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
Message-ID: <20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Hi,
Thanks!
There is actually an open source codec for both the ML20 video codec (libmimic thanks to Ole Andre) and for the Siren audio codec (libsiren 
thanks to myself :p) The audio can work without problems using the siren codec, and the webcam feature (unidirectional) works just fine with 
the ML20 codec.. the problem is with the bidirectional audio+video which uses WMV3.. libavcodec has an open source implementation of the WMV3 
codec, but it only has the decoder, not the encoder. 
Note that MSN has a lot of different v/v protocols.. 
1 - The 'old style' video call which uses a very old protocol and is still there only for interoperability with windows messenger (not WLM). 
That protocol is compatible with gnomemeeting.
2 - The 'Video Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and video and uses the new MSNP2P protocol for the signaling, WMV3 video codec and 
Siren audio codec
3 - The 'Computer Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and uses SIP/RTP and supports multiple different possible codecs (which are 
x-msrta, Siren, G722.1 (clock rate of 16000), x-msrta, AAL2-G726-32, G723, PCMA and PCMU (clock rate of 8000)).
4 - The 'Webcam' feature which is unidirectional video only, using MSNP2P for signaling and the ML20 codec
5 - the 'Voice clips' feature which is unidirectional audio, in form of 'clips' of a maximum of 15 seconds in length, uses MSNP2P and the 
Siren codec.

(This should probably go into the wiki :p)

So from all of these implementation, None of them worked for a long time, apart from the 'old style video call' which aMSN implemented 
using a modified version of linphone in the early 2001. Then we dropped it because it became impossible to maintain. Then Ole Andre reverse 
engineered the ML20 codec and made an open source library for it, then the webcam feature was added in some clients (like aMSN), then I 
reverse engineered the Siren codec and made an open source library for it, then voice clips were added into aMSN, and now. I was also able to 
get the 'Computer call' feature to work using SIP and PCMA as codec, but I never incorporated that into aMSN (because it depends on many libs 
and MSNP13). And now finally, I'm working on the 'Video Call' feature. 

In short, yes, there is already a solution for MSN video using aMSN and it works great on Mac, and it's been there for almost 3 years now. 
The Audio/Video codecs are open source, so you won't need mplayer or 'stolen' dlls...
But you can't get a real-time audio conversation. For Audio, you can still use the 'voice clips', but that's annoying.. but hopefully, soon 
we'll be able to ship a working audio AND video implementation.

Hope that helps!
KaKaRoTo

On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 08:14:32PM -0700, Alan Humpherys wrote:
> Great job on the WMV3 decoding!  The lack of an open source codec for the 
> MSN voice/video protocol has been a serious impediment to getting MSN v/v 
> working on the Mac.  (My understanding was that Linux previously only 
> worked because mplayer used the windows media player DLL in compatibility 
> mode.)
>
> Alan
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Youness Alaoui wrote:
>
>> arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent it in 
>> private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous 2 mails
>> before continuing...
>>
>> ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely 
>> necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there..
>>
>> On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3 
>> stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D
>> The audio is the problem now because of the stupid snack extension for tcl 
>> opening/closing the audio device on every chunk of sound (every
>> 50ms).. and now, I have to write a Tcl extension for libavcodec... apart 
>> from that, the only remaining challenge is encoding WMV3 (no encoder
>> exists in open source), but I'll try to send ML20 frames and see if WLM 
>> uses the FCC in the header to decode, or if it uses the WMV3
>> decoder hardcoded and skips the FCC field... if it works, then aMSN might 
>> be the first open source solution with interop audio/video
>> conversations :D
>>
>>
>> KaKaRoTo

From seanegan at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 03:52:32 2008
From: seanegan at gmail.com (Sean Egan)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 00:52:32 -0800
Subject: Web design
Message-ID: <e61d333f0802120052q5da0f65bs7661821c30da843@mail.gmail.com>

"set $wgLogo to the URL path of your own logo" is getting kinda old.
Does anyone here know anything about web design? http://go-mono.com
and http://tangoproject.org have both done really amazing web design
stuff with MediaWiki. Does anyone here want to have a stab at it, or
should we get in contact with some of those people?

-s.

From kevin at simguy.net  Tue Feb 12 04:11:44 2008
From: kevin at simguy.net (Kevin Stange)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 03:11:44 -0600
Subject: Web design
In-Reply-To: <e61d333f0802120052q5da0f65bs7661821c30da843@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e61d333f0802120052q5da0f65bs7661821c30da843@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47B162D0.6090906@simguy.net>

Sean Egan wrote:
> "set $wgLogo to the URL path of your own logo" is getting kinda old.
> Does anyone here know anything about web design? http://go-mono.com
> and http://tangoproject.org have both done really amazing web design
> stuff with MediaWiki. Does anyone here want to have a stab at it, or
> should we get in contact with some of those people?
> 

I've figured out how to edit mediawiki's design, but I'm not a designer. 
If someone wants to design something (mockups even), I could probably 
make mediawiki comply. :)

Kevin

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From felipe.contreras at gmail.com  Tue Feb 12 04:46:24 2008
From: felipe.contreras at gmail.com (Felipe Contreras)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 11:46:24 +0200
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <cd302b220802011358u40d3902ev73fb0935cffeeae7@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
	<20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <94a0d4530802120146v333b39bau3b060ac34a02e4d@mail.gmail.com>

On Feb 12, 2008 6:58 AM, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> Hi,
> Thanks!
> There is actually an open source codec for both the ML20 video codec (libmimic thanks to Ole Andre) and for the Siren audio codec (libsiren
> thanks to myself :p) The audio can work without problems using the siren codec, and the webcam feature (unidirectional) works just fine with
> the ML20 codec.. the problem is with the bidirectional audio+video which uses WMV3.. libavcodec has an open source implementation of the WMV3
> codec, but it only has the decoder, not the encoder.
> Note that MSN has a lot of different v/v protocols..
> 1 - The 'old style' video call which uses a very old protocol and is still there only for interoperability with windows messenger (not WLM).
> That protocol is compatible with gnomemeeting.
> 2 - The 'Video Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and video and uses the new MSNP2P protocol for the signaling, WMV3 video codec and
> Siren audio codec
> 3 - The 'Computer Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and uses SIP/RTP and supports multiple different possible codecs (which are
> x-msrta, Siren, G722.1 (clock rate of 16000), x-msrta, AAL2-G726-32, G723, PCMA and PCMU (clock rate of 8000)).
> 4 - The 'Webcam' feature which is unidirectional video only, using MSNP2P for signaling and the ML20 codec
> 5 - the 'Voice clips' feature which is unidirectional audio, in form of 'clips' of a maximum of 15 seconds in length, uses MSNP2P and the
> Siren codec.
>
> (This should probably go into the wiki :p)
>
> So from all of these implementation, None of them worked for a long time, apart from the 'old style video call' which aMSN implemented
> using a modified version of linphone in the early 2001. Then we dropped it because it became impossible to maintain. Then Ole Andre reverse
> engineered the ML20 codec and made an open source library for it, then the webcam feature was added in some clients (like aMSN), then I
> reverse engineered the Siren codec and made an open source library for it, then voice clips were added into aMSN, and now. I was also able to
> get the 'Computer call' feature to work using SIP and PCMA as codec, but I never incorporated that into aMSN (because it depends on many libs
> and MSNP13). And now finally, I'm working on the 'Video Call' feature.
>
> In short, yes, there is already a solution for MSN video using aMSN and it works great on Mac, and it's been there for almost 3 years now.
> The Audio/Video codecs are open source, so you won't need mplayer or 'stolen' dlls...
> But you can't get a real-time audio conversation. For Audio, you can still use the 'voice clips', but that's annoying.. but hopefully, soon
> we'll be able to ship a working audio AND video implementation.
>
> Hope that helps!

Great stuff!

This should definitely go in the wiki :)

-- 
Felipe Contreras

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Tue Feb 12 16:31:59 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:31:59 -0500
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <94a0d4530802120146v333b39bau3b060ac34a02e4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
	<20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<94a0d4530802120146v333b39bau3b060ac34a02e4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080212213159.GA7936@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Added this info into : http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN:AV
Now only the details are missing... the easy part.. right? :p

By the way, I think I'm not the only one who replies in private thinking it's a list reply... this is the second mail I got in private 
for no apparent reasons :p

KaKaRoTo

On Tue, Feb 12, 2008 at 11:46:24AM +0200, Felipe Contreras wrote:
> On Feb 12, 2008 6:58 AM, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Thanks!
> > There is actually an open source codec for both the ML20 video codec (libmimic thanks to Ole Andre) and for the Siren audio codec (libsiren
> > thanks to myself :p) The audio can work without problems using the siren codec, and the webcam feature (unidirectional) works just fine with
> > the ML20 codec.. the problem is with the bidirectional audio+video which uses WMV3.. libavcodec has an open source implementation of the WMV3
> > codec, but it only has the decoder, not the encoder.
> > Note that MSN has a lot of different v/v protocols..
> > 1 - The 'old style' video call which uses a very old protocol and is still there only for interoperability with windows messenger (not WLM).
> > That protocol is compatible with gnomemeeting.
> > 2 - The 'Video Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and video and uses the new MSNP2P protocol for the signaling, WMV3 video codec and
> > Siren audio codec
> > 3 - The 'Computer Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and uses SIP/RTP and supports multiple different possible codecs (which are
> > x-msrta, Siren, G722.1 (clock rate of 16000), x-msrta, AAL2-G726-32, G723, PCMA and PCMU (clock rate of 8000)).
> > 4 - The 'Webcam' feature which is unidirectional video only, using MSNP2P for signaling and the ML20 codec
> > 5 - the 'Voice clips' feature which is unidirectional audio, in form of 'clips' of a maximum of 15 seconds in length, uses MSNP2P and the
> > Siren codec.
> >
> > (This should probably go into the wiki :p)
> >
> > So from all of these implementation, None of them worked for a long time, apart from the 'old style video call' which aMSN implemented
> > using a modified version of linphone in the early 2001. Then we dropped it because it became impossible to maintain. Then Ole Andre reverse
> > engineered the ML20 codec and made an open source library for it, then the webcam feature was added in some clients (like aMSN), then I
> > reverse engineered the Siren codec and made an open source library for it, then voice clips were added into aMSN, and now. I was also able to
> > get the 'Computer call' feature to work using SIP and PCMA as codec, but I never incorporated that into aMSN (because it depends on many libs
> > and MSNP13). And now finally, I'm working on the 'Video Call' feature.
> >
> > In short, yes, there is already a solution for MSN video using aMSN and it works great on Mac, and it's been there for almost 3 years now.
> > The Audio/Video codecs are open source, so you won't need mplayer or 'stolen' dlls...
> > But you can't get a real-time audio conversation. For Audio, you can still use the 'voice clips', but that's annoying.. but hopefully, soon
> > we'll be able to ship a working audio AND video implementation.
> >
> > Hope that helps!
> 
> Great stuff!
> 
> This should definitely go in the wiki :)
> 
> -- 
> Felipe Contreras

From elb at pidgin.im  Tue Feb 12 16:47:31 2008
From: elb at pidgin.im (Ethan Blanton)
Date: Tue, 12 Feb 2008 16:47:31 -0500
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080212213159.GA7936@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
	<20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<94a0d4530802120146v333b39bau3b060ac34a02e4d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080212213159.GA7936@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <20080212214731.GA29237@elb.elitists.net>

Youness Alaoui spake unto us the following wisdom:
> Added this info into : http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/MSN:AV
> Now only the details are missing... the easy part.. right? :p
> 
> By the way, I think I'm not the only one who replies in private
> thinking it's a list reply... this is the second mail I got in private
> for no apparent reasons :p

Actually, that mail was Cc'd to the list -- we all received it, as well.

Ethan

-- 
The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws [that have no remedy
for evils].  They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor
determined to commit crimes.
		-- Cesare Beccaria, "On Crimes and Punishments", 1764
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From lschiere at pidgin.im  Sun Feb 17 12:51:41 2008
From: lschiere at pidgin.im (Luke Schierer)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 12:51:41 -0500
Subject: steam prpl?
In-Reply-To: <d9b431e0802161544g2835a483n24a1706752d5e176@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711130024400.15186@laptop.snarfed.org>
	<d9b431e0712012224v441e19d9m5951cbfbb0a55b58@mail.gmail.com>
	<4752550D.2030408@reaperworld.com>
	<d9b431e0712191150u49005a9dg9c50a41f3188662e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080212082915.M40436@kingant.net>
	<d9b431e0802161544g2835a483n24a1706752d5e176@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21C427D1-7B4A-4311-9EE4-E911E34D088C@pidgin.im>

What would I change it to?

This is more approrpiate for the openim at imfreedom.org mailing list.

luke

On Feb 16, 2008, at 18:44 EST, Mark Schneider wrote:

> On Feb 12, 2008 2:34 AM, Mark Doliner <mark at kingant.net> wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:50:29 -0600, Mark Schneider wrote
>>
>>> I saw that there was a ticket on trac [3] requesting the Steam
>>> protocol and have also posted some of this information there.  I  
>>> will
>>> continue to work on this in my spare time.  I welcome any offers of
>>> assistance.  Is there a preferred way to share the information I  
>>> have
>>> figured out thus far (such as a wiki page or authoring a file and
>>> attaching it to the ticket)?
>>
>> I added your information to Instant Messaging Freedom's new  
>> protocol wiki.
>> This is a fantastic place to publish information about the protocol:
>> http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/Steam_Friends
>>
>> -Mark
>>
>
> Mark,
>
> Thank you for the information about the imfreedom.org wiki.  I have
> migrated the information from the pidgin trac wiki on the Steam
> Protocol page to this wiki.
>
> One question I have though is who should I contact if I wanted to add
> CSS table formatting for the imfreedom.org wiki?  Typically, this can
> be done through editing the page MediaWiki:Common.css, but access
> seems to be restricted and I cannot locate contact information on the
> imfreedom.org wiki.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark
>
> _______________________________________________
> Devel mailing list
> Devel at pidgin.im
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devel
>


From queueram at gmail.com  Sun Feb 17 14:11:34 2008
From: queueram at gmail.com (Mark Schneider)
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 13:11:34 -0600
Subject: steam prpl?
In-Reply-To: <21C427D1-7B4A-4311-9EE4-E911E34D088C@pidgin.im>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0711130024400.15186@laptop.snarfed.org>
	<d9b431e0712012224v441e19d9m5951cbfbb0a55b58@mail.gmail.com>
	<4752550D.2030408@reaperworld.com>
	<d9b431e0712191150u49005a9dg9c50a41f3188662e@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080212082915.M40436@kingant.net>
	<d9b431e0802161544g2835a483n24a1706752d5e176@mail.gmail.com>
	<21C427D1-7B4A-4311-9EE4-E911E34D088C@pidgin.im>
Message-ID: <d9b431e0802171111l6abf1cd8y224eb3204e75e0ea@mail.gmail.com>

> > On Feb 12, 2008 2:34 AM, Mark Doliner <mark at kingant.net> wrote:
> >> I added your information to Instant Messaging Freedom's new
> >> protocol wiki.
> >> This is a fantastic place to publish information about the protocol:
> >> http://imfreedom.org/wiki/index.php/Steam_Friends
> >>
> >> -Mark
> >>
> >
> On Feb 16, 2008, at 18:44 EST, Mark Schneider wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> > Thank you for the information about the imfreedom.org wiki.  I have
> > migrated the information from the pidgin trac wiki on the Steam
> > Protocol page to this wiki.
> >
> > One question I have though is who should I contact if I wanted to add
> > CSS table formatting for the imfreedom.org wiki?  Typically, this can
> > be done through editing the page MediaWiki:Common.css, but access
> > seems to be restricted and I cannot locate contact information on the
> > imfreedom.org wiki.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Mark
> >
On Feb 17, 2008 11:51 AM, Luke Schierer <lschiere at pidgin.im> wrote:
> What would I change it to?
>
> This is more approrpiate for the openim at imfreedom.org mailing list.
>
> luke

Luke,

I was wondering if there could be some CSS added for table formatting
on the imfreedom.org wiki?  Ideally, I'd like to see something like
the wikitable/prettytable styling such as the one that wikimedia uses.
[1]  Currently, the tables on the imfreedom.org wiki lack a grid
without bordering, and adding borders doesn't look the best.

Thanks,
Mark

[1] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css

From kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net  Mon Feb 18 14:17:05 2008
From: kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net (Youness Alaoui)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:17:05 -0500
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<94a0d4530802011521h7d12ef41gd6ddf75ea66b56fb@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
	<20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <20080218191705.GA28688@kakaroto.homelinux.net>

Hey guys! 
Billiob from the aMSN team just found this document : 
http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/B/E/0BE8BDD7-E5E8-422A-ABFD-4342ED7AD886/InkSerializedFormat(ISF)Specification.pdf
M$ finally released the file format specs for the ISF (hand written messages)!!! Although we already reversed it, we now have an official specs!
I added the link to the wiki.

Just letting you know...

KaKaRoTo

On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 11:58:56PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> Hi,
> Thanks!
> There is actually an open source codec for both the ML20 video codec (libmimic thanks to Ole Andre) and for the Siren audio codec (libsiren 
> thanks to myself :p) The audio can work without problems using the siren codec, and the webcam feature (unidirectional) works just fine with 
> the ML20 codec.. the problem is with the bidirectional audio+video which uses WMV3.. libavcodec has an open source implementation of the WMV3 
> codec, but it only has the decoder, not the encoder. 
> Note that MSN has a lot of different v/v protocols.. 
> 1 - The 'old style' video call which uses a very old protocol and is still there only for interoperability with windows messenger (not WLM). 
> That protocol is compatible with gnomemeeting.
> 2 - The 'Video Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and video and uses the new MSNP2P protocol for the signaling, WMV3 video codec and 
> Siren audio codec
> 3 - The 'Computer Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and uses SIP/RTP and supports multiple different possible codecs (which are 
> x-msrta, Siren, G722.1 (clock rate of 16000), x-msrta, AAL2-G726-32, G723, PCMA and PCMU (clock rate of 8000)).
> 4 - The 'Webcam' feature which is unidirectional video only, using MSNP2P for signaling and the ML20 codec
> 5 - the 'Voice clips' feature which is unidirectional audio, in form of 'clips' of a maximum of 15 seconds in length, uses MSNP2P and the 
> Siren codec.
> 
> (This should probably go into the wiki :p)
> 
> So from all of these implementation, None of them worked for a long time, apart from the 'old style video call' which aMSN implemented 
> using a modified version of linphone in the early 2001. Then we dropped it because it became impossible to maintain. Then Ole Andre reverse 
> engineered the ML20 codec and made an open source library for it, then the webcam feature was added in some clients (like aMSN), then I 
> reverse engineered the Siren codec and made an open source library for it, then voice clips were added into aMSN, and now. I was also able to 
> get the 'Computer call' feature to work using SIP and PCMA as codec, but I never incorporated that into aMSN (because it depends on many libs 
> and MSNP13). And now finally, I'm working on the 'Video Call' feature. 
> 
> In short, yes, there is already a solution for MSN video using aMSN and it works great on Mac, and it's been there for almost 3 years now. 
> The Audio/Video codecs are open source, so you won't need mplayer or 'stolen' dlls...
> But you can't get a real-time audio conversation. For Audio, you can still use the 'voice clips', but that's annoying.. but hopefully, soon 
> we'll be able to ship a working audio AND video implementation.
> 
> Hope that helps!
> KaKaRoTo
> 
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 08:14:32PM -0700, Alan Humpherys wrote:
> > Great job on the WMV3 decoding!  The lack of an open source codec for the 
> > MSN voice/video protocol has been a serious impediment to getting MSN v/v 
> > working on the Mac.  (My understanding was that Linux previously only 
> > worked because mplayer used the windows media player DLL in compatibility 
> > mode.)
> >
> > Alan
> >
> >
> > On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> >
> >> arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent it in 
> >> private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous 2 mails
> >> before continuing...
> >>
> >> ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely 
> >> necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there..
> >>
> >> On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3 
> >> stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D
> >> The audio is the problem now because of the stupid snack extension for tcl 
> >> opening/closing the audio device on every chunk of sound (every
> >> 50ms).. and now, I have to write a Tcl extension for libavcodec... apart 
> >> from that, the only remaining challenge is encoding WMV3 (no encoder
> >> exists in open source), but I'll try to send ML20 frames and see if WLM 
> >> uses the FCC in the header to decode, or if it uses the WMV3
> >> decoder hardcoded and skips the FCC field... if it works, then aMSN might 
> >> be the first open source solution with interop audio/video
> >> conversations :D
> >>
> >>
> >> KaKaRoTo
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim

From dx at dxzone.com.ar  Mon Feb 18 18:38:53 2008
From: dx at dxzone.com.ar (Dx)
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2008 20:38:53 -0300
Subject: [SPAM] Re: MSN Protocol documentation
In-Reply-To: <20080218191705.GA28688@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
References: <b501d25f0802011414k57acad8fvfa377faf00dba245@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080202025749.GB7884@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080206011412.GA19185@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091356n2e0295d8n8afc08565a9282e2@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080209230329.GB31517@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<cd302b220802091853h7c474454r283c1923ba3c49e9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20080210043549.GA32206@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<D4CF699E-3542-4163-885F-A1134A8CB15D@adiumx.com>
	<20080212045856.GA5893@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
	<20080218191705.GA28688@kakaroto.homelinux.net>
Message-ID: <cd302b220802181538k2dea20co4d4cc85577fd834c@mail.gmail.com>

"open specification promise". What does that remind me?
Hmmm... ooxml... patents... lies.

This nice doc says that we should ask them for specific advice:
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2008/foss-primer.html
So someone should ask them.


On 2/18/08, Youness Alaoui <kakaroto at kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> Hey guys!
> Billiob from the aMSN team just found this document :
> http://download.microsoft.com/download/0/B/E/0BE8BDD7-E5E8-422A-ABFD-4342ED7AD886/InkSerializedFormat(ISF)Specification.pdf
> M$ finally released the file format specs for the ISF (hand written messages)!!! Although we already reversed it, we now have an official specs!
> I added the link to the wiki.
>
> Just letting you know...
>
> KaKaRoTo
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 11:58:56PM -0500, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> > Hi,
> > Thanks!
> > There is actually an open source codec for both the ML20 video codec (libmimic thanks to Ole Andre) and for the Siren audio codec (libsiren
> > thanks to myself :p) The audio can work without problems using the siren codec, and the webcam feature (unidirectional) works just fine with
> > the ML20 codec.. the problem is with the bidirectional audio+video which uses WMV3.. libavcodec has an open source implementation of the WMV3
> > codec, but it only has the decoder, not the encoder.
> > Note that MSN has a lot of different v/v protocols..
> > 1 - The 'old style' video call which uses a very old protocol and is still there only for interoperability with windows messenger (not WLM).
> > That protocol is compatible with gnomemeeting.
> > 2 - The 'Video Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and video and uses the new MSNP2P protocol for the signaling, WMV3 video codec and
> > Siren audio codec
> > 3 - The 'Computer Call' feature which is bidirectional audio and uses SIP/RTP and supports multiple different possible codecs (which are
> > x-msrta, Siren, G722.1 (clock rate of 16000), x-msrta, AAL2-G726-32, G723, PCMA and PCMU (clock rate of 8000)).
> > 4 - The 'Webcam' feature which is unidirectional video only, using MSNP2P for signaling and the ML20 codec
> > 5 - the 'Voice clips' feature which is unidirectional audio, in form of 'clips' of a maximum of 15 seconds in length, uses MSNP2P and the
> > Siren codec.
> >
> > (This should probably go into the wiki :p)
> >
> > So from all of these implementation, None of them worked for a long time, apart from the 'old style video call' which aMSN implemented
> > using a modified version of linphone in the early 2001. Then we dropped it because it became impossible to maintain. Then Ole Andre reverse
> > engineered the ML20 codec and made an open source library for it, then the webcam feature was added in some clients (like aMSN), then I
> > reverse engineered the Siren codec and made an open source library for it, then voice clips were added into aMSN, and now. I was also able to
> > get the 'Computer call' feature to work using SIP and PCMA as codec, but I never incorporated that into aMSN (because it depends on many libs
> > and MSNP13). And now finally, I'm working on the 'Video Call' feature.
> >
> > In short, yes, there is already a solution for MSN video using aMSN and it works great on Mac, and it's been there for almost 3 years now.
> > The Audio/Video codecs are open source, so you won't need mplayer or 'stolen' dlls...
> > But you can't get a real-time audio conversation. For Audio, you can still use the 'voice clips', but that's annoying.. but hopefully, soon
> > we'll be able to ship a working audio AND video implementation.
> >
> > Hope that helps!
> > KaKaRoTo
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2008 at 08:14:32PM -0700, Alan Humpherys wrote:
> > > Great job on the WMV3 decoding!  The lack of an open source codec for the
> > > MSN voice/video protocol has been a serious impediment to getting MSN v/v
> > > working on the Mac.  (My understanding was that Linux previously only
> > > worked because mplayer used the windows media player DLL in compatibility
> > > mode.)
> > >
> > > Alan
> > >
> > >
> > > On Feb 9, 2008, at 9:35 PM, Youness Alaoui wrote:
> > >
> > >> arghh.. not intentional.. I just hit 'r' and didn't notice it sent it in
> > >> private.. forwarding to the ML now, so guys, read the previous 2 mails
> > >> before continuing...
> > >>
> > >> ok, I see about vv==av :p yes, a dedicated section is definitely
> > >> necessary, considering the amount of data we'll have to put in there..
> > >>
> > >> On a side note, I've just (5 minutes ago) been able to decode a WMV3
> > >> stream received from WLM in the audio/video conference thingy :D
> > >> The audio is the problem now because of the stupid snack extension for tcl
> > >> opening/closing the audio device on every chunk of sound (every
> > >> 50ms).. and now, I have to write a Tcl extension for libavcodec... apart
> > >> from that, the only remaining challenge is encoding WMV3 (no encoder
> > >> exists in open source), but I'll try to send ML20 frames and see if WLM
> > >> uses the FCC in the header to decode, or if it uses the WMV3
> > >> decoder hardcoded and skips the FCC field... if it works, then aMSN might
> > >> be the first open source solution with interop audio/video
> > >> conversations :D
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> KaKaRoTo
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openim mailing list
> > Openim at imfreedom.org
> > http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
> _______________________________________________
> Openim mailing list
> Openim at imfreedom.org
> http://pidgin.im/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openim
>


-- 
dx

